Peak EGT Temperatures

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coaster
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Yes it's an analogue one Mike and as I said, I completely get the fact that they are individual to the bike. I only want it as a warning of impending doom, I've wrecked too many pistons :oops: I was just pondering that most engines will be about right jetting wise if they are adjusted to tickover at a nice steady speed so exhaust temps should all be in the same ball park? or do factors like compressing ration and ignition advance have a significant effect at tickover?

Just trying to understand a few basics ;)
nelson pk
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As already said EGT temps can vary a lot. What can catch you out is that some EGT's read lower than others.
You will find the higher temps will be when fast cruising between 1/4 and 1/2 throttle. On mine anymore than 630 degrees celsius and i dont like it! Full throttle, any more than 580 degrees and i dont like it. It is still important to still read the plug while looking at EGT temps but to get a good plug reading you need to hold it at a certain throttle position maintaining good revs for a couple of miles (unless you hear pinking of course and then you stop and re-jet) because if its running a bit lean and you hold it there for a few hundred yards and do a plug chop it'll probably just come out a light tan colour and you'll think, thats ok, but when you take it out for a long run and hold it there for a few miles it'll still burn a hole through your piston as its getting hotter and hotter. Once you know your safe with plug colour you will also know what your EGT temp was and therefore you know your safe temps.
Beware though.....when your engine is under load, for example going up hills or against strong winds you will find your EGT goes down. If it goes down more than usual your head temp could be getting very hot!
A perfect world is an EGT and CHT because if your EGT is reading very low and your CHT is reading very high your on the way to seizure or holey pistom time!
Confusing isn't it? :lol:
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coaster
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nelson pk wrote:You will find the higher temps will be when fast cruising between 1/4 and 1/2 throttle. On mine anymore than 630 degrees celsius and i dont like it! Full throttle, any more than 580 degrees and i dont like it
I did notice that at around 1/4 throttle (48 mph) it shot up to just over 700, I assumed I'd found a weak spot. I'll upget and see what differnce it makes. As a matter of interest, what temp do you get at tickover?
nelson pk
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Yeah, EGT's are excellent tools for finding weak spots. Especially in the mid range where it is more likely to pop a piston .What you will probably find that if its at 1/4 throttle its going to be your atomiser/needle that needs enriching . I dont think you will see much difference if you upjet the pilot.
However putting a richer needle/atomiser combo in may cause your pilot or main or both to become slightly over rich and then they may need tweeking.
EGT's are excellent tools to see exactly where the carb circuits overlap.
Tickover temp..........well to be honest i dont take much notice of it but i think its around 180ish when its hot but will start to come down if you leave it ticking over for quite a while.
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coaster
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Thanks Nelson, it was the needle I was going to play with (pwk so fixed atomiser) for the mid range weak spot. I wish I'd fitted the gague earlier then I'd know what temp it was running the other week when it nipped up :roll: I have never had any problems before with nip ups at part throttle openings, it's always been at WOT. I will have to thrash it and see if I can get it to the point of pinking :?
tha83
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My understanding has always been that 1350 F or 720 C is the no go zone with regards to holing a piston. Of course, as someone mentioned earlier, sensor placement is critical and with the analog units such as the ones found on Ultralight aircraft (Westach) have a slight lag in readout over their digital counterparts. I would imagine that high silicon content pistons (Hyperutectic) would offer a degree of protection against seizure. Has anyone found a definitive guide? By now, most of us have been able to sense when a motor is beginning to nip up and blip the throttle with the clutch pulled in. Nothing causes greater pucker factor for me than when I'm happily doing 65-70 mph on a super highway and I watch that gauge creep up over 1200-1250. With the mad swings in air density here in San Francisco, jetting has been challenging. I like my Lectron carb for it's ability to climb in altitude (we have actual mountains here) but nothing can correct so easily for the insane amounts of micro climates within 100 miles of my house. It's nuts.
nelson pk
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Has it always been at wide throttle openings or when winding down from full throttle?
If it definitely was at continuous wide open throttle have you up jetted your main?
I would still however look at your needle with that temp reading.
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Just to add, when running at that throttle position again do a plug chop and if thats ok run it again at that position for a longer period and do another plug chop.
Remember, the plug will be your best indicator and the EGT might just be reading that high for your particular engine but i would definitely check it out to be sure.
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Just found this very interesting article on the web, it probably explains my mid range hot spot but does illustrate how complexthe whole issue is :?

Outside the study of geometry, not many things in this world can be stated as simply as “if this is so, then that must be so.” The popular conception of the EGT, is that high temperature indicates a lean mixture, and that a low temperature indicates a richer mixture. Therefore, if your EGT is running a little higher than the engine manufacturer's recommendation, the engine must be running lean. This is not necessarily true.

The EGT measures the temperature of the exhaust gases in the immediate area of the exhaust system where the sensing probe is installed. The temperature that is critical to the engine is the temperature of the burning gasses inside the combustion chamber. Since it is not practical to physically measure the temperature there, a representative measurement is taken at a point in the exhaust system.

Because the exhaust gas temperature is being measured in a location removed from the actual point of combustion, the readings can be affected by the dynamics of the exhaust system, after-burning and engine loading. Therefore, a higher or lower than normal EGT reading is not always mixture related.

When gasoline and air are mixed in such proportion to have complete combustion, in other words all the fuel and all the air are completely used, the resulting temperature will be in the 1500 F range. This temperature is far too hot for an internal combustion engine to sustain for any length of time without incurring catastrophic failure.

If the chemically perfect fuel-air mixture is altered, either by adding more air, or by adding more fuel, the combustion temperature will cool down. However, the amount of fuel available to the engine is directly related to the power that the engine produces. Thus, the fuel-air mixture is made richer to lower the combustion temperature, rather than leaner.

The maximum EGT considered to be safe is in the 1200 F to 1300 F range, depending upon the engine manufacturer, where the EGT probe is located, and the type of cooling system employed. A fuel-air mixture that produces an EGT above the recommended maximum is considered too lean, even though it is still too rich for complete combustion.

Because of this fuel-air mixture relationship to EGT, most pilots have come to believe that the solution for a high EGT is a richer mixture. Unfortunately, this is only true when the cause of the high EGT is due to a lean mixture. There are other things going on in an operating two-stroke aircraft engine which can cause high EGTs, totally unrelated to carburetion and fuel-air mixture.

The location of the exhaust gas sensing probe within the exhaust system can cause the EGT reading to run consistently high or low. This variance may be due, in multi-cylinder engines, to the additive nature of exhaust gasses from more than one cylinder being imposed upon the sensing probe.

Also, the location of the probe may be in an area of the exhaust system in which the fuel rich, hot gas, is exposed to additional oxygen and “after burning” is occurring. Some engine manufacturers make allowances for these anomalies in their maximum EGT limits. For this reason, the maximum EGT recommendation for a 582 Rotax, for instance, should not be imposed as a standard upon another make and model engine.

In every engine installation, to be a meaningful source for comparison, the temperature sensing probe must be installed at the location in the exhaust system specified by the engine manufacturer. Remember, it is the temperature in the combustion chamber that is critical, not the temperature where the sensing probe is located. If you have 1200 F wired to a red warning light in your brain, and the manufacturer of the new engine you just installed is telling you that 1350 F is OK, you might be having some trouble accepting that. But remember, what the manufacturer is really saying is that when you have 1350 F at the probe, the exhaust gas temperature in the combustion chamber is within limits.

Two-stroke engines depend upon the design of their exhaust system for their usable power band and maximum power output. Waves of positive and negative pressure travel back and forth in the exhaust system. These positive and negative pulses are created by various components designed into the system and travel at near the speed of sound, depending upon the gas temperature. The engineers use these negative and positive waves as valves for the exhaust port.

Negative waves, timed appropriately, can help evacuate the combustion chamber of burned gasses and pull in a fresh fuel air charge, while positive pressure waves can hold the fresh charge in the combustion chamber until the piston covers the exhaust port.

The pressure pulses arriving at the exhaust port at the right moment, result in a dramatic increase in the volumetric efficiency of the engine and a corresponding increase in power. The timing of these waves depends upon the design of the exhaust system, the temperature of the exhaust gasses, and the RPM of the engine.

Even though, exhaust systems for aircraft engines are designed to provide power over a wide RPM range, there will be operating ranges where the reflected pressure pulses will not be arriving at the exhaust port at the right time. The high and low pressure waves will shift one way or the other inside the exhaust. This shift will cause a relocation in the hot exhaust gas pulses, as well, and can cause spikes in EGT readings at certain, rather narrow, engine RPM ranges.

These spikes in EGT, either up or down, generally have nothing to do with fuel-air mixture. The temperature of the burning gasses in the combustion chamber may not have changed at all. But in the area of the exhaust system where the EGT sensing probe is located, the pressure pulses are moving the gasses in such a way as to create radical changes in EGT readings.

The most common, and misunderstood, condition affecting EGT is engine loading. If the engine is not loaded sufficiently, it will run high EGTs. If the mixture is richened, the EGTs will go up, rather than down. A lightly loaded engine can be enriched to the point that it will barely run, and still have high EGTs. The explanation is found in one of Newton's laws. Simply stated, it says that energy cannot be created, nor destroyed.

When we burn a fuel-air mixture inside our engine, we are converting chemical energy into heat energy. When applying the pressure created by the expansion of the burning gasses inside the combustion chamber, to a movable piston, we are converting a portion of the heat energy to mechanical energy. The heat energy not used in turning the crankshaft is given off through the exhaust and the engine cooling system. If we add all this up, it would equal the amount of energy present in the fuel before it was introduced into the engine.

So it would be correct to assume that, for the same amount of fuel-air mixture being burned in the combustion chamber, if less heat energy is being utilized to turn the propeller, then more heat energy will be going out the exhaust. In other words, a lightly loaded engine, will throw considerably more heat out of the exhaust than the same engine, with the same throttle setting, carrying a heavier load. So, not only will a heavier loaded two-stroke engine have lower EGTs, but the engine will produce more power for the same amount of fuel burned. If a lightly loaded engine, with a high EGT, has the mixture enriched, the extra fuel will go out the exhaust, increasing the EGT even more.

Hopefully, I have made the case that high EGT readings are not always mixture related. And, probably you are not real happy to hear this, since life was so simple before. This new information has ruffled your security blanket. Let's try to smooth it back out a little.

The very best indicator of what is going on inside the combustion chamber is the spark plug. It lives there, knows what is going on every minute that the engine is running, and will not lie. If you are concerned about having high or low EGT readings, examine the spark plugs. If the EGTs are really running high, the spark plug will show signs of overheating, there will be very little carbon buildup on the electrodes, and the carbon that is present will be light in color, tan, light grey, or even white. Overheated spark plugs will not have any remaining sharp edges on either electrode. There may be blisters on the center electrode ceramic insulator.

Low EGT, due to an excessively rich mixture, would cause the spark plugs to be dark in color. They may possibly even appear wet, with considerable carbon buildup, almost to the point of fouling.

If the spark plugs do not confirm the EGT readings, then the EGT is being affected by something other than fuel-air mixture.

If the EGT readings are consistently high (or low) throughout the RPM range, it may be an instrument error, or it may be the location of the temperature sensing probe.

On the other hand, if the EGT readings deviate from the normal engine EGTs dramatically, but only within very small RPM ranges, this deviation may be caused by the exhaust system's tuning. If this is the case, the engine CHT would not be affected. If the EGT was an actual indication of high combustion temperatures, then there would be a corresponding rise in the CHT, and the spark plugs would have signs of overheating, as well.

This can be tested during ground runs. Or, you can simply avoid these RPM ranges in flight. Trying to correct areas of dramatic deviation, with changes to carburetor jetting, without first confirming that these areas are caused by a lean mixture, is an exercise in futility.

Engine loading (or rather, lack of engine loading) is the most common cause of high EGTs not related to fuel-air mixture. High EGTs related to an under-loaded engine are easy to identify. The engine will be turning very high RPM, near the manufacturer's recommended red line, or above. While the EGTs are above the recommended range, the CHTs will be well below. Aircraft performance may be soft, and fuel consumption will be high. Additionally, if the mixture is enriched, there will be no corresponding decrease in EGT.

The solution, of course, is to load the engine with more pitch, a longer propeller, or a combination of the two, until the CHT comes down into the recommended range. The maximum RPM the engine will be able to turn will come down also, but there will actually be a gain in thrust. As the engine is loaded, the CHT will come up and the fuel burn will go down.

The limit to loading a two-stroke is the CHT. The engine can continued to be loaded until the CHT moves into the higher area of the manufacturer's range. It is critical to not exceed the CHT, since pre-ignition and detonation can be the result. A fifty degree buffer between the engine's normal, loaded CHT and the engine manufacturer's limit is recommended. Remember, EGT readings are only a guide. They are not always related to fuel-air mixture, and the spark plug is the most accurate indicator of combustion chamber temperature. n

Courtesy of Author: Mr. Roger Zerkle
and Ultra-Flight Magazine
nelson pk
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Good article that and it does show that EGT is not the be all and end all which is quite right!
Very true about the "afterburn" as what you will find if you keep your carb settings the same and advance the timing the EGT temp will go down. Now you would think that advancing the timing the engine would get hotter and it does, but EGT's generally go down because there is less afterburn going down the exhaust and the heat is being retained in the head.
If you retard the timing EGT's go up because the charge is still partially burning while it travels down the header pipe. This is actually good and keeps the head and piston cooler but EGT's do go up!
It can be a minefield and just goes to show how EGT's can vastly differ from bike to bike!
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