TS1 225 Kits - advice please

[Timbo]

Also consider who you ride with. A mate has detuned his expensive and highly tuned engine as in reality he wasn't riding much over 60 when out with us.

[Strummer10]

Timbo, valid point .....I guess a standard TS1 probably ticks the box as anything over 70 mph on them small wheels worries me tbh , they just aint built to do that kind of speed are they.

[vespanic]

I ran a BGM on my TS1 down to Avignon. Whilst it wasn't the same as the devtour previously fitted it gave pretty good performance until the crank went lol. Try the BGM before you buy any other exhaust you might be surprised.
I'm not 100% sure but I think some of the London Lambretta Club tested some of the prototypes and they were fast on their TS1's coming back from the 4 nations in Scotland.

[gaz_powell]

My first TS1 was home built and set up exactly how AF instructed, it's a lot of years ago now... back in leaded petrol days - it used a 34mm amal, fresco, the dreaded centre spring etc and man was it impressive at the time (but that was probably the "new" wow factor).
Funny when I think back no squish issues, just use the quote "the thick GT head gasket"..... no consideration about thicker/thinner base gaskets etc...... Ducati ignition set up using positive stop and the marks on the flywheel ( no needs for strobe lights???) ..... I digress...

I've had a TS1 on the road constantly since and have stuck to the basic principle laid down then using a standard barrel, 57x107, SIL200 GP box, 19/46, standard reeds etc and will continue to do so.
Necessity and progress sees my now use RB rodded SIL cranks, taffspeed (or copy) pipes, IWIS chains, dellorto carbs (both the vhsb and phbh), better chain guides, manifold change for better clearance etc
Plus I'm sticking with static timing, just wish I had a few ducati electronic kits hanging about!!

I don't consider my set up as "revvy" it's extremely rideable in all circumstances which I put down to the g/b, sprocket and exhaust combination which works well for me (rally riding only no ride outs or farting about).
I build one for a mate as he was impressed by mine and he was and still is over the moon with the set up.
(it's back at mine having strip/inspection/service following a good few thousand trouble free mileage)

Think we're i'm getting to is the "standard" TS1 works well and is easy to set up....its very easy to spend money for spending sake......

Good luck which ever route you choose

Gaz

[Strummer10]

Cheers Guys for response.....really helps

In the pub yesterday afternoon discussing this same issue with the scooter club pals and another rider raised the same dilemma, he has a TS1 currently but wants to upgrade it so we had the 'what this' ....'what about that' conversation............and again we discussed whether we bang in 60 stroke 116 con rodded cranks and I said to him IF the benefit was marginal was it worth the extra spend............

He's also going hydraulic clutch and back brake and 5 speed, all of which I don't believe are necessary .....adding a further £ 1500 + to the alterations. My Mrs can have her new bathroom with that lol

[Strummer10]

Cheers for the advice guys, it's really helped me make my mind up ......

so i'm gonna bang on a TS1 225 standard kit and use the existing (quite new) 57 / 107 crank (which is already an SIL one with RB rod) which I fitted in readiness for some form of kited up top end (although might have to pop it out to match the cylinder and casing). I'll also give the BGM clubman a trial and see how I get on.

...............As many of you state it will probably do what I want it to, just then a case of whether I need to upgrade the braking as it will just have a conventional Italian GP front hydraulic brake on it, but I might look at the hidden conversion they do .

[Adam_Winstone]

That crank should be man enough for the job, indeed, much better than many of the more expensive cranks that offer less.

I hope that it returns what you're after

Adam

[gaz_powell]

My crank of choice - in two of my TS1s and two I've built for others plus a spare in store.
Got a build coming up and that's what will be in it.

My last crank was SIL webs with Yam RD400 rod, only t match short piston.

[Strummer10]

Cheers adam / Gaz / others.......I think I was over analyzing.......(not a good thing) and as 'Charles Handy' the writer explains in he's many books people tend to buy 'gadgetry and the latest out there' in the belief that's what they need, when in fact a cheaper TV, car, stereo might deliver what you want !!

Next question.....any ideas where I can find a table / suggestions on the best gearing set up for a TS1 225 with BGM clubman (version 3) as i'm gonna go with that (at least for now).......

Regards

[Adam_Winstone]

www.afrayspeed.co.uk/pages/45-tooth-gear-chart.xls


TS1 / Race Rapido Final Drive Ratio
NK 5.2
Fresco 4.8
Taffspeed 4.5 - 4.7
PM Tuning 5.1 - 5.3
DevTour (MB) 4.9 - 5.1
Kegra 5.2
JL KRP3 4.6
JL KRP4 4.7
Scorpion 4.9 - 5.2
ScootRS 5.2


Unfortunately, you will not see the BGM clubman on the list, however, much of this will also depend on how heavy/big you are and whether you intend to do much 2-up, live in a hilly or flat area, etc. all of which would influence what ratio you're looking for in top. Another 2 things to consider:

1. AF's original and basic guidance when the kit first came out was for 4.8 in top with a VW clubman or Fresco (as above in their current guidance), which I can assure you would still be the best all round top ratio for most grunty pipes, unless all of the factors are working in your favour; you're 7 1/2 stone, 4'5" tall, never go 2-up and live in Holland. 4.8 and you're not going to be far off.

2. Watch out for thinking that the BGM clubman allows you to pull very high gearing as whilst that might be possible with the RPM range of the pipe, the standard porting (port durations) of the TS1 mean that it will always produce best power at certain RPMs... if you make 4th so tall that you struggle to make those RPM then you will also struggle to reach the RPM where the power is. I often tout the line, 'if you want a TS1 to ride like a SIL stage IV then you really should have bought a SIL IV and saved yourself a heck of a lot of money and effort!', and I still stand by it. If you limit the RPM too much then you also limit the kit.

Please note that you may get away with 4.6 but only if factors are working in your favour. Remember that 4.8 works out roughly at 10 MPH per 1000 RPM so think about it in how hard your pipe revs and how fast you want to be spinning the motor. Many expansions will allow a reasonably ported kit to hit 10,000 RPM through the gears and even your BGM may reach or exceed 8K RPM if you hold it to the top of the rev range (no doubt a graph will be along shortly) and you should consider whether you want anything higher than that? (!) My iron 238 was spinning at 10K on Revival's open day at over 90 MPH and people were moving back away from the dyno as my bike sounded like a jet that was at risk of exploding!!!!

So, whilst others with a BGM clubman might come along to give you their 1st hand experience of gearing a TS1, remember that fit too high a ratio and you risk not getting high enough in the rev range to reach the RPM that the TS1 is ported to work at, but too low a ratio and you may find that the motor revs out too soon and/or limits higher cruising speeds. 4.8:1 = 10 X 1000, therfore:

6000 RPM = low rev cruising with clubmates at 60mph

7000 RPM = rpm picking up but happily touring with others

8000 RPM = starting to 'give it some' but happily still within the operating range of most decent Lambretta components (a decent clutch, decent bearings still cope with ease, etc) but nice to be able to use this additional power for overtaking or catching up with others when necessary. When you decide that you do want to use top end performance for such a manoeuvre, the last thing you want to be doing is finding that you're already revving out on short gearing or find that you open up the throttle and nothing happens as the motor doesn't really want to pull an overly long 4th, meaning that you need to drop to 3rd and scream its knackers off.

Another thing to consider about fitting a 4th that is within reach (workably short) is it means that you're likely to have enough grunt to easily span the 3rd to 4th gap that many peaky motors or pipes struggle with. A pal of mine runs a standard TS1 225 with LI125 and 18/47 standard GP200 sprockets (many hate this because of the 3rd to 4th % rise) and his bike pulls it perfectly, noting that he is not a heavy or big bloke. Again, this is because he has consider the motor as a whole, rather than looking at BHP figures of individual elements. When considering gearing he considered how the sprocket arrangement would allow him to get away with a fairly basic clutch, allow him to use a strong original Innocenti gearbox that he already had, combine this with a decent sized carb (30mm) and [importantly] a pipe that had good low RPM function but that also allowed enough RPM range to work in harmony with the TS1 port durations... so he fitted a JL3. Considering the motor as a whole unit in harmony, rather than randomly picking a selection of bits that are fashionable in 'pub chat' and dyno figures, has resulted in a bike that he loves to ride and rides beautifully. LI125 is still not 1st choice of box though if you have decent other options but do note the comment about sprocket influence on clutch requirement.

I'd look to aim for 4.8:1 and then tailor it to your needs from there, which you can do with a tooth more or less on the front sprocket, if chain allows.

Adam