ethanol, detonation, egt's?

[B-Race Tuning]

Hi Dapper, from what I can establish ethanol stabiliser helps against moisture absorption, corrosion inhibitor and supposedly ash preventor to keep down carbon build up upon combustion. what it doesn't do is alter the alcohol content therefore does nothing (chemically) to prevent detonation.
Dave 411, Yep agree, but that one fuel stop on the motorway that super unleaded does have and it's all over. I agree that super unleaded is probably the single current safe(r) roulette bet, BUT.......
ethanol fuels absorb moisture. It is accepted that it doesn't absorb from the atmosphere but from condensation in the storage tanks. A partially full storage tank will suffer far more condensation than a full tank. Just go to your favoured fuel filling station and see/ record the ratio of fuel delivered to the vehicles std v super and work out for yourself how long super is sat around inside the tanks.
Good to hear from you on this, Sticky. According to me, I'd reckon it'd go down too With your knowledge/ contacts / discussions with tuners there has to be a train of thought thats common?
Regards
Simon.

[dave411]

its a good job we don't live in the USA,we would all be walking every where.

[sharkman]

Just use super unleaded.Depending where you are,it mostly contains no ethanol.

I did some research after fitting a fibreglass long range tank as ethanol will disolve the resin apparently "most super unleaded fuel is ethanol free and companies such as BP and Esso have confirmed this but shell refused to comment so presume it has it. Just google ethanol in petrol and you should find more lists. I use the two above where possible and the tank is still intact and no running issues on my TS1 230. Once the changes happen the information will be there on tinternet as it affects so many different minorities in the motoring world. Just have to wait and see

[carlos fandango]

Dave 411, Yep agree, but that one fuel stop on the motorway that super unleaded does have and it's all over. I agree that super unleaded is probably the single current safe(r) roulette bet, BUT.......ethanol fuels absorb moisture. It is accepted that it doesn't absorb from the atmosphere but from condensation in the storage tanks. A partially full storage tank will suffer far more condensation than a full tank. Just go to your favoured fuel filling station and see/ record the ratio of fuel delivered to the vehicles std v super and work out for yourself how long super is sat around inside the tanks.

i always use super/97. i have a long range tank, it probably holds about 16ltrs , my RB dose roughly 10 miles per ltr on a run.
Ive done lots of miles here and on the continent , we usually look to refuel every 60 to 80 miles, so if im faced with a fuel station that dosent have super/97 ( and i have) im only filling half my tank with 95.
I agree the super/97 will of probably of sat in the tanks longer than the 95 BUT .....97 dosent/shouldnt, afaik, contain the moisture absorbing ethnol !
i see the octant rating may be reduced due to the fuel standing in the tanks , so it may be down to 95 octane but without the ethnol
I have an EGT and CHT which im always looking for unusual highs and unusual low

[Adam_Winstone]

Adam has finally caught up with this thread, nearly as slow as on my scooter! [ comment for Simon ]

On the way back from Euro France a couple of years ago, 3 of us did Avignon to Orleans in a day (430 miles), which on my Avanti with standard tank meant that I went through lots and lots of fill ups in an 18 hour riding day (6-midnight, time for lunch, carb strip/clean, etc.). Unlike normal use, where you might get through a tank in a week or more, going from one tank of petrol straight to the next, onto reserve, then repeat process really allowed you to feel just how differently your bike was responding to each fill up. I was riding with a clubmate on a Suzuki 190 and the other on an iron road tune 175 and they felt the difference every fill up too, which was supported by my EGT giving massively different cruising temps for the same cruising speed as done on the previous tank(s). Thankfully, none of these bikes is run close to the limit so the margin for error/a small heat increase is not cause for a complete melt down, but a bike close to the edge would have run into issue on some of those fill ups. Note that we did our best to avoid the E10 marked pumps.

Indeed, many of us ran into similar problems on the fuel available in Spain too. Eden and I both commented on our bikes pinking at certain rev ranges and a number of people found that they had to run with the choke constantly on to avoid seizing! Once home and refueled my bike stopped pinking immediately.

Certainly, European E fuels on long Euro runs do highlight the issues that we are soon to be faced with here. Run your bike close to the edge and your likely to find yourself being relayed home

Adam

[coaster]

Just a thought about Super 97 octane sitting around in forecourt tanks due to lower sales. Logic might suggest that forecourts would hold a lower stock of 97 (maybe a smaller tank?) otherwise they would just have money unnecessarily tied up in slow selling stock, and I would bet they have it pretty tightly measured as the margins are very low on fuel sales apparently.

[B-Race Tuning]

Welcome Adam . Coaster, Agree about stock levels held entirely, but most tanks are installed pretty much the same sizes, even the really old tanks (2* days even) as the tanks are installed (underground as a rule) to allow for fuel stock expansion (i.e. at a docks a new filling station built. installs 6 tanks, all the same size. 3 for petrol 3 for diesel. always sell out of diesel, two tanks of petrol left at order time , re allocate at ratio 4/2 or 5/1).
As different fuels are introduced and levels/ ratio of fuels are held or euro legislation demands stock level of x to be held, where do British put the fuel? Just about all UKs tanks are underground (apparently its safer, but importantly the UK has an available space shortage). Most Euro fuel storage at filling stations is? Surface mount in tanks. Need more storage? crane a new tank in and pump. We have to work out where the hell we'd put a tank. close station for a month, install tank etc etc. The UK stocked levels of 5% (or even talked about 0%), will be?
As Adam has touched on but Carlos has said "I always use super/97.." "..so if Im faced with a fuel station that doesn't have super/97 (and I have) Im only filling half my tank with..." you still have to run on 95 e5, and as Eden said in his write up on the GT kit about holing piston, and some of us have unfortunately experienced synchronised devastation with otherwise 100% RELIABLE scoots, It can all be over within 5 miles of filling up. (Superb review/ write up by the way Eden, appreciated).
Depending on fuel company policy ethanol is being introduced into super/97 per region over time with the South West (us down here), and areas of the South East (You up there). Some already.
EGT's and CHT's are good tools, BUT If it is going to happen its unlikely they will give you enough warning.
Adam, effectively you're on the money, if there is no guaranteed way of getting E0/E5 en route to a euro/ Kelso (from here)/ long run with your on board fuel, an RB/TS1/ MONZA/ etc etc will be a local bike and a run bike will be very tuned to low performance if you see what I mean. If you and Eden experienced detonation, you start worrying don't ya. Putting the choke on helps enormously and should prevent damage, retard timing (but true Detonation is not dependent on timing!), DECREASE compression ratio to previously unrun figures at the risk of banging out your b/e.
Engines Ive built for the last 6 years run 6:1 CCR. And Ive still had one pop on dodgy fuel. Ive discussed with Ian and he and I both have started toying with 5.9/5.8:1.
Where you say "Run your bike close to the edge.." is, as we stand, interpreted today as "set up perfectly on the dyno to run optimally in all weathers/ temperatures for max. power delivering reliability". We will very soon be tuning and dynoing for boggy performance, very poor fuel economy....
I'm not trying to portray the apocalypse, Im trying to promote discussion of real probability so we can address it now. And I for one want to ride my scoots for a lot longer yet. Buying a Scomadi etc. for me isn't an option. Lambrettas are two stroke singles. Trying to tune to E10 spec may be possible BUT the reading Ive done so far would suggest without computer fueling/ temperature management is a non starter. Many/ most 4 stroke engines pre 2006 (motorcycle and car) won't/are unlikely to last long on E10, hence phased e10 introduction.
Im sorry but I can't recall the "actual" numbers that the government quotes, but it was either 1.8million or 0.8million vehicles are in this country that CANNOT run on ethanol based fuels, hence the change of date from 2013 to 2016. to allow 50% of the number of vehicles to "be removed from circulation".
I reckon the numbers are very wrong! ONLY 1.8million pre 2000 petrol vehicles? Im just a bloke in a shed and Ive got over 10 including scoots, lambros, landrover, haflinger etc. Thats just me. Theres you lot, all the minis/ vw's/ classic bikes/ classic cars/ centurion tanks/ stalwarts. Sorry, I don't believe it.
I'm not having a go at anyone, I'm saying that the information I can glean does not have a happy outcome for our way of life. and Sharkman, unfortunately "just have to wait and see" puts us either into unplanned, untested crisis modifications to stay on the road or the EU/ UK government just take us off the road to meet eco targets without having the spine to publicly state that running Any well maintained 15+ year old vehicle is more environmentally friendly than buying a new vehicle due to manufacturing co levels. And I don't know about you but I generally have had a rolling 20+ year old vehicle on the road since I could ride, whereas Ive had possible twenty 5-15 year old s**t cars that some have to be scrapped purely because no end user can diagnose the engine management, including the main dealers. And long will that continue. You gotta love ecu's and the bed they are in with rising % of ethanol content fuel.
If you've read all that, Sorry.
Rambling is possibly not the best thing whilst tired, in pain and mildly whacked on morphine but hey, might make you talk about in the pub at the next club meet, or not.
S

[B-Race Tuning]

That post was waaay tooo long. Thats it. I'm out. Over to you. S

[Mr G in NYC]

its a good job we don't live in the USA,we would all be walking every where.

You got that right ..... I've been de tuning everything...... Lost count of the issues I've had with
the ethanol in the fuel here ...............however I just found a commercial small airfield
that sells aviation 100% octane fuel in ten gallon tanks Gonna be an interesting summer G.

.

[Adam_Winstone]

^ G.... interesting if you only want to stay within range of that airfield fuel source, or if you buy yourself a bowser!

I note that a quick comment was made previously about food crops now being sacrificed for fuel crops and thought this worth highlighting again. I've read a number of reports about grain for fuel fetching a higher price than grain sold cheaply for food and how the net result is meeting bio fuel targets but leading to a drop in food stocks for famine hit areas and poorer nations, and it all stinks of political quick wins and big corporations making even bigger profits. Little do some of the bleeding heart liberals realise that their naïve green ideals are resulting in children starving! Road pollution is a tiny contributor in comparison to air traffic pollution but those same lobbyists can't get the quick wins by taking on the 'big boys', nor do they want to give up their sunshine breaks! Picking on the minority is far easier.

I don't like politics and rarely have a rant but the whole bio fuel debate jets under my skin... or perhaps that is just the lead replacements (lol).

Adam