TS1 245 38bhp / 26.14 ft.lbs

[Muttley McLadd]

gadgetman can you tell us a bit more about your below quote.
"With some of the power outputs being so high when comparing the bikes with others that are as quick or even quicker on the road but have dyno figures much lower its hard to understand how that can be."

I read it as meaning that it's all well and good having a really high power figure, but realistically, when you're riding the bike on the road, the power would be far more use far lower down the rev range. A bike with 15hp from 4k to 7k is far more use (and quicker when cutting through traffic) than one with 10hp all the way to 6k where it makes 20hp and 9k where it makes 35hp.

[Darrell Taylor]

the key to getting that balance right is gearing to suit (if you rev 2k more approx 20 mph then you can gear up to 20mph less and still pull the same top speed with vastly improved rideability )

[Muttley McLadd]

the key to getting that balance right is gearing to suit (if you rev 2k more approx 20 mph then you can gear up to 20mph less and still pull the same top speed with vastly improved rideability )

Yup.. an extra 2k of revs when you're filtering between morons is a bit annoying on your ears though.

[drunkmunkey6969]

gadgetman can you tell us a bit more about your below quote.
"With some of the power outputs being so high when comparing the bikes with others that are as quick or even quicker on the road but have dyno figures much lower its hard to understand how that can be."

I read it as meaning that it's all well and good having a really high power figure, but realistically, when you're riding the bike on the road, the power would be far more use far lower down the rev range. A bike with 15hp from 4k to 7k is far more use (and quicker when cutting through traffic) than one with 10hp all the way to 6k where it makes 20hp and 9k where it makes 35hp.

I think what happens here is people confuse BHP and MPH.

Speed is a function of peak RPM and gearing. Suppose it takes 20bhp, 7000rpm and 5.0 final drive to pull a genuine 70mph......and then you have some porting work done and you now have 25bhp, but peak power is still at 7000rpm and gearing remains the same.....then you'll still pull 70mph. But you'll get there faster. With a bad tune you'll possibly be slipping the clutch, with a good tune the clutch might start slipping ;o))

So it is possible, through (correct/incorrect) gearing that a 20bhp scooter peaking at 8000rpm may go fast than a 25bhp scooter peaking at 8000rpm if they are pulling different gearing (or conversely with the same gearing, but if they peak at different RPM). How they get there, and how they deliver the power is another conversation entirely.

Having said all that.........Darrell seems to specialise in what his customers want.....high power motors. Most graphs so far spread from 5250rpm - 8250/9000rpm. And the tunes he gives are full of torque AND bhp...not just one or the other. He combines that with correct gearing for the given application, and results are achieved.

I get what gadgetman is saying, and have seen examples of it also.........but not in this thread/post/graph.

Darrel has suffered in some ways, as his knowledge of tuning outweighed his knowledge of air cooled Lambrettas briefly, hence two holed pistons at his first race meet on the big motor, but since then his motor/rider combo is proving the graphs are not just hype.

[Muttley McLadd]

I think what happens here is people confuse BHP and MPH.

Nope.. I wasn't.. My point was that a bike that is used for riding, rather than looking at and using as a boasting point (and used every few weeks to go on a 'ride out') isn't going to be a lot of use if all its power is 6k+.
Example.. that superdupermonza that someone posted a graph of a little while ago. A standard coop has more power at the sort of revs you'd ride it at whilst negotiating traffic. Yeah, heaps of power higher up, and it's a lovely smooth curve. But watch your rev counter when you're riding in 50/70/80k limits. You're not going to be doing 8k revs. You're doing between 4 and 5.5k, where on one of these 35hp machines, you've got barely any power at all.
Sure, you could downgear it and be doing 7000 revs at urban speed limits. But who wants to sound like a crosser stuck in second?

[drunkmunkey6969]

Yes bud...horses for courses. 80% of scooter owners want smooth, rideable machines....which are reliable, and quick enough to zip along and get where they are going. No issues there bud. But don't have a go at the big BHP motors just because its not what you want....some lads (me included) love it. There's no more or less respect in doing 10,000 miles per year at 55mph, than there is doing 55 miles per year at 100mph....its just about giving people what they want.

[joespeed]

I think what happens here is people confuse BHP and MPH.

Nope.. I wasn't.. My point was that a bike that is used for riding, rather than looking at and using as a boasting point (and used every few weeks to go on a 'ride out') isn't going to be a lot of use if all its power is 6k+.
Example.. that superdupermonza that someone posted a graph of a little while ago. A standard coop has more power at the sort of revs you'd ride it at whilst negotiating traffic. Yeah, heaps of power higher up, and it's a lovely smooth curve. But watch your rev counter when you're riding in 50/70/80k limits. You're not going to be doing 8k revs. You're doing between 4 and 5.5k, where on one of these 35hp machines, you've got barely any power at all.
Sure, you could downgear it and be doing 7000 revs at urban speed limits. But who wants to sound like a crosser stuck in second?

although power may start at say 5k that doesnt mean it is not ridable in town traffic,it just means lots more power to nip past slower moving vehicles,ive not put this to test but i dare say that you can set off on tickover and accellerate to 80mph,
i hold my hand up,my middle name is 'thomas' and doubt was also in my mind,i was invited to test ride this 38hp,i have a ts of 25hp thought this was good ,so i tried to use 38hp in the same way,bad move from tickover to full bore on the back wheel,low geared yes 2nd gear did the same 3rd tried ,traffic interupted me but 80mph very smooth,my doubt disappeared so placed an order,i now have just a few of these! but no more doubt,i also have 50plus mpg ,
i know there will be loads more out there who still think its not possible to make a ridable high hp lambretta!

[Darrell Taylor]

Darrel has suffered in some ways, as his knowledge of tuning outweighed his knowledge of air cooled Lambrettas briefly, hence two holed pistons at his first race meet on the big motor, but since then his motor/rider combo is proving the graphs are not just hype.

thats only half a story
what actually happened there which i did post before was much simpler
id recently purchased and fitted an untested road exhaust when i tested it for the first time at the mallorry pre season test day its stinger diameter prooved too small for the power output of my race motor and caused localised heating/melting to the exhaust side of the piston
this can and probably will happen to many others as higher power levels are reached so ill let my loss be others gain as a bit of air cooled lambretta knowledge ill pass on to others beware the stinger

[Darrell Taylor]

Yes bud...horses for courses. 80% of scooter owners want smooth, rideable machines....which are reliable, and quick enough to zip along and get where they are going. No issues there bud. But don't have a go at the big BHP motors just because its not what you want....some lads (me included) love it. There's no more or less respect in doing 10,000 miles per year at 55mph, than there is doing 55 miles per year at 100mph....its just about giving people what they want.

thats right
i like to compare it to car choice
some want a commute into town/city smart car
some want a sensible family car
some want an estate car to take family /dogs/lots of luggage
some want a hot hatch with 4 seats
some want a 2 seater kit car

not all are suited to everyone which is why the market provides choices and consumers who can choose carefully with the information there provided with
i put an old post up titled power range spreadsheet that helps to analyse the data in a readable format which i was keen to demonstrate that what was perceived to be a peaky high hp motor actually had more power available even at low rpm than most std engines

[tony]

Darrel has suffered in some ways, as his knowledge of tuning outweighed his knowledge of air cooled Lambrettas briefly, hence two holed pistons at his first race meet on the big motor, but since then his motor/rider combo is proving the graphs are not just hype.

thats only half a story
what actually happened there which i did post before was much simpler
id recently purchased and fitted an untested road exhaust when i tested it for the first time at the mallorry pre season test day its stinger diameter prooved too small for the power output of my race motor and caused localised heating/melting to the exhaust side of the piston
this can and probably will happen to many others as higher power levels are reached so ill let my loss be others gain as a bit of air cooled lambretta knowledge ill pass on to others beware the stinger

Not being funny Darrel but at your level why are you using road pipes and not making your own? I wouldn't even bother with a road pipe. And stinger diameter , well you would know that's pretty basic stuff but maybe LC motors can handle it.
Your group 6 goes very very well. Joe rides it as if he was on his mini twin 650.
And it's great to watch. But the pipe is the heart of the motor in my book. I look forward to you producing one and showing what is available from your tune in that bike. I think it could disappear into the distance.