who would build the following t5/ts1 conversion

[ducksta]

any machining required swapping the t5 crank for a p200 crank and what size packer would be requred

[MattsDad]

I don't post often but I thought I should chip in as the graph was mentioned and a couple of comments on this and the dyno thread. TS1 barrel on top is a brilliant idea because its different and has worked well for years; I'm working on an Aprillia RS mimic to a Malossi 210 because its something to do at a weekend, each to their own! P casings can take it if the prep is done and there are the components now to match. The 30 is my road bike which is a mild tune which mirrors the Monza but is better lower down and was fairly easy. That sounds arrogant but getting a 40 race tune out of it is a mornings work; the blinkered view here of 'Lardy's' is old hat but thanks to German / Italian development of durable parts it is now doable, It just costs a lot

[tony]

The ts1 is a very nice air cooled reed valved barrel.

Here is the port map



Dont be fooled by the areas.. you have to take into account the angle of entry of flow. So, in reality the areas are much smaller espiecally in the secondaries which run two basic flow angles, so your output flow area is much smaller than what you see on the port map. Also the ts1 secondary ports run no kicker so secondary flow tends to disrupt boost flow and therefore loses area at the same time.

This is the T5 malossi barrel.


This barrel is not restricted by the narrow barrel studs (on one side) as the lambretta barrel is. It has a symmetrical stud layout. So much more area... and therefore so much more potential.

I think Dan has a very valid point in that due to the (comparably) un-popular nature of the vespa t5 that less has been developed for it pipe wise. In fact pipes for large frames are pretty poor and thats why Oz realised that a one off pipe from PM was required to draw through the small ts1 ports to make the conversion work well. Which it does... But how well would a pipe draw given much more port area to begin with...

[tony]

an example... this is a 125cc Quattrini M1-LR... this is a road kit you can buy off the shelf for the smallframe casing.



Its 125 cc made for the smallframe vespa.. again its restricted by the barrel studs ( as my racer is) but just look at the area it has..

And here is the Rs125 Honda


This quattrini barrel (the image above the one above) makes around 18hp before tuning and I believe its what Sticky runs, albeit with a 54 stroke. His bike flies. I have seen it, and I guess at around 24hp judging by his laptimes and the fact he can ride the thing very well.

[tony]

I find it interesting that the boost is lower than than the main or secondaries.. this means the pipe is working and they are using the boost as a boost and not a transfer port as such. The main draw as it should be is through the mains. So.. as the mains tend to mix so much better you get a better charge and then better explosion. The boost should only be that, as long as you have a pipe that works with it.
Years ago I reversed the flow times.. so , The boost opened first , then the secondaries and then the mains.. the reason was, is, that I was restricted to one design of pipe (as I had never welded at that point). So.. I realised the deficiencies of the said pipe and worked around it. This is really backward tuning, and another reason why I gave up as I realised there was so much more to it that I had time to dedicate..
The pipe is the heart of any two stroke motor and it doesnt matter how big your transfers are. Its the pipe and primary that matters if you are after big hp and good drive.

[OzOAP]

I am sure your vespa runs well. But it could go better and thats due to the science of port/time/area.

If only Terry Shepherd knew as much as you...

MattsDad, always found your posts interesting and its nice to see someone other than German/Italian pushing P Range development.

Ducksta, P2 crank needs a 10mm longer pin and maybe the webs packing out for crankcase compression, but that depends a lot on the state of tune/pipe. There will be people a lot more qualified than me to help with that witchcraft.
Stroke is 5mm more (or 8 if you go 60 stroke), rod is 6mm longer.

[ducksta]

ime lost lol so quick summary guys,

ive got a medium budget, got a 172 malossi at present with a simonini exhaust standard cases and carb etc or ive got a polini suzuki ts185 conversion standard carb polini induction kit revolver exhaust or a standard stock motor all t5s, which do i play with

[Darrell Taylor]

to assist youd need to finalise a few details
1. intended use
2. budget will this stretch to all the parts needed and potentially a 1 off pipe?
3. timescale
4.which way you want to go on availability of parts/engineering skills/in house or sub out
5.end result ? personally id take the route of least resistance if end result is similar

i reckon the t5 malossi 172 on 30mm carb and a good pipe can comfortably do 25-30 bhp if the ts conversion is looking for the same power and the budget is restricted id go the easier route.

oz could help you decide by giving approximate costings for the ts conversion, cyl kit/head/engineering/crank/pipe etc etc

or a tune on the 172 you have already and a one off pipe if theres nowt on market already ??
not a vespa man so apologies if got owt wrong

[OzOAP]

TS costs (10 years ago)

2nd hand modified TS cylinder £100.
YZ piston £120
Crank/rod £200
Welding £40
Pipe £1000
Head £100
Clutch £50
T5 casing £30
37t 4th gear £free
Machining £free

All other stuff, seals, bearings, carb, studs, ignition, reeds ect would be needed whatever the build.

Darrell, the market for a 25hp T5 would be huge.

[ducksta]

everything was reading well till i got to the pipe ouch, shall i start saving darrell or will it be cheaper then ozs pipe. cheers for info oz ime of to the santa pod event if you there mate chat over a pint