Building a new engine

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Snails
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About 8 years or so ago I was very kindly given an Indian 150 engine casing. As I’d broken (and subsequently repaired) the engine mounting on my existing 150 casing I thought it would be a good idea to build myself a new engine to replace it and this was an ideal opportunity.
Unfortunately life and other projects, namely my Lui 125 conversion, got in the way and I never built the engine and it’s been sat in the loft for the last 8 years but now it needs to be built or go so I’ve rescued it from the loft, borrowed an engine stand and determined to build it.
Back in the past having acquired the casing I set about buying the internal parts to fit it. Mostly these were sourced from ebay, but the starting point was a scooter restorations 175 barrel as these were being sold off for £40 at the time. I also purchased an Asso piston, some cutters for my Dremmel to clean up the ports, an unused 2nd hand Indian Gp200 crank with FAG bearing (the sleeve already fitted), a GP125/200 gearbox, a 18front cog and (from memory) a stretched chain.

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I also acquired a Delorto PHBL25 carb, used endplate and kickstart mechanism and new inner and outer clutch baskets plus a new Indian layshaft, I later needed to use the inner clutch spider to replace a worn one in my road scoot and found it impossible to fit – that’s what you get from buying parts from ebay I guess. As such I’m not that optimistic that the layshaft will turn out to be any good either but fingers crossed. As I need another inner spider I have in mind replacing the clutch with a 5 plate type, ideally one with as little messing about to fit as possible. The Magneto side bearing is the only one I bought in the past so although I did buy some of the gaskets it looks like I need to shell out for all the remaining bearings and seals as well as chain guilds.
I seem to remember an article in Scootering comparing 5 plate clutches but any advice would be appreciated on this
My first task is to clean up the casing – as I’m on a tight budget its white spirit and toothbrush’s rather than having vapour blasted. Whilst I’m doing that I’ll price up the missing parts I need.

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I’m surprised at the price of rear hub bearings. The cheapest I could find has been Beedspeed at £27, compared with say Scootopia at £42. As it’s hardly a race bike I’m building is there any need for the more expensive bearing?

I also need a drive side retaining plate. Why are there grooved and non grooved types? Is to do with the bearing and oil seal used?

Also having been stuck in the loft for so long the Christmas tree has suffered a bit from rust. It only looks superficial but should I worry that it’s affected the bearing face?

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barnsleybilly
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Hi Snails,

Firstly everyone will have different ideas on what you should do going forward and here's mine for better or worse!

I'd not use that Christmas tree as it is, looks like the case hardening has suffered quite badly. They are repairable though as I believe Mark Broadhurst at MB Developments can sleeve them. Best to check out the cost of this work against buying another second hand one though.

I wouldn't bother with a 5 plate clutch in a 175, its a bit over kill and if your rebuilding to a budget then a good 4 plate clutch with taffspeed springs will work well without all the clearance & drag issues of some of the cheaper 5 plate set ups.

The Indian GP cranks have great webs but suspect rods & big ends, Id look at having it re-rodded with say an RB rod at AF's. Your choice though and you may want to risk it but I've been there at the side of a motorway in Holland tipping bits of bearing out of my exhaust.

I've read mixed reviews abou the rear hub bearings but I think as long as you buy a genuine SIL rear hub bearing from Scooter Restorations you should be OK there. I've never had a rear hub bearing fail and a famous tuner from Doncaster once told me he salvaged second hand Italian ones from old casings.

All the other bearings are standard metric bearings and seals so Google the sizes and go down to your local bearing stockists. That should save you a packet.

I dont know why the grooves there either - oil retention? Some prefer the type with no groove as it raises primary compression but I'd say it wouldnt be by anything worthwhile. Don't use the lighter alloy GP type as they can warp.

If you still need a drive side retaining plate I'm sure I have some second hand steel ones and you can have one if you PM me your address.
Snails
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Thanks Billy - I welcome all opinion whether I agree with it or not.

I will definitely look into your suggestion regarding strengthening the crankshaft. I'd heard this before so thanks for the reminder, and that's good advice regarding the bearings although I have no idea who would be my local bearing stockist but I will have a look and see if I can find one. I'm always up for saving some money. :)

Disappointed regarding the Christmas Tree. I wonder if the photo makes it looks worse than it is. Difficult one I know for you guys to call from a photo. I'll have another look at it and see what it looks like with some light cleaning.
joeswoonara
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barnsleybilly wrote:Hi Snails,

Firstly everyone will have different ideas on what you should do going forward and here's mine for better or worse!

I'd not use that Christmas tree as it is, looks like the case hardening has suffered quite badly. They are repairable though as I believe Mark Broadhurst at MB Developments can sleeve them. Best to check out the cost of this work against buying another second hand one though.

I wouldn't bother with a 5 plate clutch in a 175, its a bit over kill and if your rebuilding to a budget then a good 4 plate clutch with taffspeed springs will work well without all the clearance & drag issues of some of the cheaper 5 plate set ups.

The Indian GP cranks have great webs but suspect rods & big ends, Id look at having it re-rodded with say an RB rod at AF's. Your choice though and you may want to risk it but I've been there at the side of a motorway in Holland tipping bits of bearing out of my exhaust.

I've read mixed reviews abou the rear hub bearings but I think as long as you buy a genuine SIL rear hub bearing from Scooter Restorations you should be OK there. I've never had a rear hub bearing fail and a famous tuner from Doncaster once told me he salvaged second hand Italian ones from old casings.

All the other bearings are standard metric bearings and seals so Google the sizes and go down to your local bearing stockists. That should save you a packet.

I dont know why the grooves there either - oil retention? Some prefer the type with no groove as it raises primary compression but I'd say it wouldnt be by anything worthwhile. Don't use the lighter alloy GP type as they can warp.

If you still need a drive side retaining plate I'm sure I have some second hand steel ones and you can have one if you PM me your address.
very good advice , i`d second everthing said there :D
:D
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shocky
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I recentley had a indian crank rebuilt with a 110 rod to make it smoother it came shimmed and with a small end bearing total cost was £95 from harry Barlow I needed a 3 mm packer which he gave me free of charge but there only about 4 quid crank is supposedly good for 25 bhp I bought viton seals as well at £15 TBH IVE SPENT ABOUT £100 More on my engine than I thought but now itsdone im very happy I didnt scrimp
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Yanker
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barnsleybilly wrote:
The Indian GP cranks have great webs but suspect rods & big ends, Id look at having it re-rodded with say an RB rod at AF's
.

I've read mixed reviews abou the rear hub bearings but I think as long as you buy a genuine SIL rear hub bearing from Scooter Restorations you should be OK there. I've never had a rear hub bearing fail and a famous tuner from Doncaster once told me he salvaged second hand Italian ones from old casings..
Red: Agree 100`% Replace the crank or re-build as suggested.

Blue: All Indian rear hub bearings are '[NRB'[ brand or inferior= hit and miss (mostly the latter) . Beedspeed = Jap/Nachi = good. In my experience Casa=s**t, MRB unavailable at the moment. A low cc'[ original R.I.V. everytime > just check the play. N.O.S. RIV available from the likes of Tutto Lambretts II would probably ditch the 40yr. old seal that comes with. I have an SKF Lambretta rear hub bearing (NOS) in my R250 engine, but for the life of me I cannot get any sense out of ant SKF representative about the code number (SKF France marked.....) shame really as it has been solid through no end of abuse over countless years......

Rear hub bearing rave over (thanks for reading)

A
Snails
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Thanks for all the replies and rants ;). I've certainly got a bit to think about. It did cross my mind on the way to work that it might be worth checking whether the crank had the pin or big end replaced already - as I know nothing of its history. I guess any replacement work would leave marks on the webs where the work had been carried out? I wouldn't want to get the same thing done twice!
shocky
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Mine didnt have any marks on the outside I couls only tell by the new rod and some slight machining marks inside the crank webs were the shims go what rod is on it mabe a pic or 2
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rosscla
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Agree that cluster is gubbed. I had one like that. I got the repair sleeve from Broady and took it to a local engineer to machine it and press fit the bush. Total cost I think about £27.

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Snails
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shocky wrote:Mine didnt have any marks on the outside I couls only tell by the new rod and some slight machining marks inside the crank webs were the shims go what rod is on it mabe a pic or 2

Here are a couple of pictures. The rod does not look new but it does seem to have been worked on recently as some parts are clean metal.

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Also the blue 'burn' marks around the webs. Is that normal?

Image
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