DYNO GRAPHS POWER RANGE SPREADSHEET

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Darrell Taylor
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tony wrote: I wonder how the ignition map was made? I bet at the factory they developed on a step dyno.

without going into too much detail as u know step dynos provide a testing regime that allows plotting of fuel and ign mapping at set rpm points but then needs finalising with an inertia run as a motor never runs in the conditions that the step dyno creates hence the reason aprilia chose not to use them

I know what you mean about race bikes as they are mainly on or off the throttle and therefore the inertia type works well.

But what about if you are flat out in 4th down half way down the straight and holding that throttle position?
if its practice you come in and change the gearing


Is it possible at the mallory test day you could have prevented the stinger-too -small issue on the eddy current type as you could load up the motor and hold and find out what is happening

testing it on any dyno could have prevented it ,i never got chance finished build at 11pm night b4

problem with the dyno room is all the conditions of the day and the track cannot be covered regardles of dyno type
a good ear and eye on running at the track is essential along with data collection
at mallory race last weekend we went up 30 points on main jet and retarded timing compared to croft based on 1st practice plug and piston crown reading
how can you replicate altitude in your dyno room ?
how do you replicate pipe wall temp that is really high in the dyno room but vastly reduced on track?
how do you replicate a wet race and pipe quenching effects
etc etc etc


thing with 2 strokes is s**t happens and it regularly does for everyone at some point especially so for the frontrunners its something you just accept especially in early development stages although at both croft and mallorry a few well developed group 4,s probably set up on step dyno,s let go


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tony
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Firstly Darrell I am not having a pop at you. But your response seems as if you think that ... I was asking you a question. Thats all. You know more than me on this stuff so please do not take offence.

But in response to your replies.

1. So, I posted in response to Eibar as he is asking about midrange setup on inertia dynos, but somehow you switched it to racing application which I dont think he is questioning but, you kind of admit in your reply they used a step dyno to set up and map the aprillia machine (what about honda and ktm?). And a final run on inertia to check... yes for sure...but the sweep run is made after the eddy current setup. Also.. aprilia is a watercooled race bike... they are relying less on the fuel to cool the motor. They use the LC of course. I am responding to you on the basis that we are talking about AIR cooled motors.

2. If you want to change the gearing just because you are flat out half way down the straight then thats how you set up race bikes. I do not. I like my motors to be able to sustain WOT in 4th for some time so I am happy to let the motor scream in top for the remainder of the straight.

3.You have to set up for dry conditions and work from that. But an eddy current setup will get you closer. Pipe wall temps can be controlled pretty much with a dyno cell and speed relative cooling. Altitude as you know can be adjusted for on the day. However in a proper cell you can control air temps and I have used a few. OK, It is getting a little intense doing that but if you run each time on a similar air temp/density it does give a very good basic platform to work from and takes out some of the correction factors. One point though.. I tried ignition mapping on an inertia dyno... it doesnt work -so I dont believe the race teams dont use the eddy current systems. It doesnt work due to run replication and you cant load at a given rpm (so how can you determine correct ign or advance or fueling? The 125 gp riders are not on WOT every corner-at least until , they reach a certain part of said corner. And ok lc will help cool but I bet these guys optimise everything-after all if they have ign maps for every gear so they will look at load/fuelling/ign midrange.)
Going back to mapping on inertia dynos..You cant replicate each run accurately.So your ign value/results vary all the time (as pipe wall temps go up, and engine temps rise). Also you cant hold a given rpm which in my case was relevant as i dont hold WOT on my race bike through certain corners or it will bite me (as it has done). (I might hold 3/4 throttle until apex and then full for example.)

4. yes s**t does happen.. we are all learning , all of us , all the time. No one knows it all and there is much to learn. I am not knocking you for that breakdown. I was asking you if you think it would have showed up 'load testing' . I think it would.

Just a point.. 'sweep' or 'inertia' runs can be made on either dyno type. But only 'step' runs can be made on a step dyno.
I think as dyno scooter tuning evolves it will edge towards the eddy current or step type dyno.
As Ralph says... "dyno b@11@x". And i have him right..
He was referring to dodgy set ups on then inertia dynos and not real world solutions but with operators trusting AFR who are not realising exactly what is going on.. Only yesterday I got two emails from scooter riders who were not trusting two different operators to set up their bikes due to 'ride home after dyno set-up horror stories' .
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drunkmunkey6969
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tony wrote:As Ralph says... "dyno b@11@x". And i have him right..
He was referring to dodgy set ups on then inertia dynos and not real world solutions but with operators trusting AFR who are not realising exactly what is going on.. .
Did he tell you that, or is that just your interpretation?

I always assumed he said dyno bollox as an easy way of not having to spend thousands of pounds on expensive equipment?
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tony
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I know that the rs125 built and tuned by Ryan and Ralph was dynoed. So take the comment how you will.
With the advent of dynos a lot of old school tuners said similar things specially when bad set ups showed with blown motors often when the customer was on his way home.
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Darrell Taylor
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[quote="tony"]Firstly Darrell I am not having a pop at you. But your response seems as if you think that ... I was asking you a question. Thats all.

You know more than me on this stuff so please do not take offence.

to start by saying that i know more than you then questioning everything after that statement is a bit of a p155 take??

But in response to your replies.

1. So, I posted in response to Eibar as he is asking about midrange setup on inertia dynos, but somehow you switched it to racing application which I dont think he is questioning

i thought eibar had the sprint bike at north liverpool academy ,unless i have the name wrong which is why i mentioned race set ups


but, you kind of admit in your reply they used a step dyno to set up and map the aprillia machine (what about honda and ktm?). And a final run on inertia to check... yes for sure...but the sweep run is made after the eddy current setup.

no, my reply says its my opinion an inertia run is neccessary after step testing as thats how a motor runs real world ,i dont know how aprilia formed there map but on the basis they rejected a step dyno id say they did it on the inertia as they did all there testing
?how does a step tester manage throttle position control on a conventional carb during the very accurate rpm steps is the throttle connected to a solenoid to provide fractions of mm precise throttle position control


Also.. aprilia is a watercooled race bike... they are relying less on the fuel to cool the motor. They use the LC of course. I am responding to you on the basis that we are talking about AIR cooled motors.
air cooled motors go back to a golden age of motorcycle history where inertia dyno development and track testing was typically all that was available

more replys to follow ill break them up a bit
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Darrell Taylor
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[quote="tony"]

2. If you want to change the gearing just because you are flat out half way down the straight then thats how you set up race bikes. I do not. I like my motors to be able to sustain WOT in 4th for some time so I am happy to let the motor scream in top for the remainder of the straight.

interesting theory on gearing ,never known any racer run short track gearing on long track by choice

gear for peak power rpm as you hit brake marker on longest straight then make fine 1 tooth adjustments on rear to find the right gear for the most beneficial corners on track whilst maintaining gearing on peakpower rpm powerband width
only exception ive done is a short kart circuit trick on close ratio 6 speed gearboxes where speed is so low only4 or 5 gears are used in this case you forefeit 1st and posibly 2nd too to capitalize on the closer gaps at the upper part of box making a 4 speed from the closer 3rd 4th 5th 6th instead of running 1st 2nd 3rd and 4th



3.You have to set up for dry conditions and work from that.

thats a bit poor id have thought a speed sensitive water spray system would have been used in conjunction with the speed sensitive air blower onto the header and belly within the climate controlled test cell thats fitted in the lift compartment of a dubai skyscraper to factor for altitude :D only kidding but you see my point you cant factor it all


But an eddy current setup will get you closer. Pipe wall temps can be controlled pretty much with a dyno cell and speed relative cooling.
pipe wall temps can be controlled to what figure ,only if data has been collected at the track or road first to set a datum to work to but with temp change the datum changes so all the talk of highly accurate testing regimes falls down to what the weatherman says which makes a mockery of the whole exercise.

. I tried ignition mapping on an inertia dyno... it doesnt work

thats your own experience

ive done it many times with zeeltronic,hpi and pvl systems and it worked fine,most were done for 6 hour endurance race 50cc machines that proved themselves on track with improved track times and many championships


-so I dont believe the race teams dont use the eddy current systems. It doesnt work due to run replication and you cant load at a given rpm (so how can you determine correct ign or advance or fueling?
id say the opposite a step built curve is built around an engines motoring method it never sees or experiences only for a very small % of the time,a good tool for getting to the result quicker but needs sweep testing to complete



The 125 gp riders are not on WOT every corner-at least until , they reach a certain part of said corner. And ok lc will help cool but I bet these guys optimise everything-after all if they have ign maps for every gear so they will look at load/fuelling/ign midrange.)
thats the point the largest % of riding is not done stepped it accounts for probably 2%, roll on throttle on track = roll on throttle on dyno if your train of thought on the other matters is about accurate testing regimes then why throw the main parameter away?

Going back to mapping on inertia dynos..You cant replicate each run accurately.So your ign value/results vary all the time (as pipe wall temps go up, and engine temps rise).
just like they vary on the track as you roll on so why not replicate

Also you cant hold a given rpm
so why hold a given rpm on the dyno if you cant on the track
which in my case was relevant as i dont hold WOT on my race bike through certain corners or it will bite me (as it has done). (I might hold 3/4 throttle until apex and then full for example.)
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Darrell Taylor
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tony wrote:
4. yes s**t does happen.. we are all learning , all of us , all the time. No one knows it all and there is much to learn. I am not knocking you for that breakdown. I was asking you if you think it would have showed up 'load testing' . I think it would.

it would have shown up if id tested it at all,bike was built at 11pm night before mallory so no dyno test :(

Just a point.. 'sweep' or 'inertia' runs can be made on either dyno type. But only 'step' runs can be made on a step dyno.
I think as dyno scooter tuning evolves it will edge towards the eddy current or step type dyno.

do you think customers will pay for the investment in step dynos and the lengthy testing regimes as most just want a quick check over,and ultimately the motor is only as good as its built or the sum of its parts ,eg. 5 hrs on a step dyno then a cheap mag gasket fails and creates an air leak after the event cant be factored for


As Ralph says... "dyno b@11@x". And i have him right..

i think they have a dyno now :D

He was referring to dodgy set ups on then inertia dynos and not real world solutions but with operators trusting AFR who are not realising exactly what is going on.. Only yesterday I got two emails from scooter riders who were not trusting two different operators to set up their bikes due to 'ride home after dyno set-up horror stories

ive seen a few like that myself blown head gaskets,air leaks,fuel frothing,split carb rubbers is the biggie,
and the most bizzare one of all was an air leak thru the spark plug insulator on a brand new plug if ran could have been air + spark + fuel = plasma cutter
its an easy cop out to blame a dyno operator


' .
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tony
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Cheers Darrell. Hope to visit darley so I will come and chat a bit more :)
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Darrell Taylor
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ok tony be good to catch up
ps to anyone reading,we are not arguing here just discussing different views/thoughts,ideas,theorys that we hold from our own experiences all tony,s and my own views have merit no rights or wrongs just opinions

what im sure we,ll both agree on is useful power production on air cooled motors is all about controlling the heat!
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drunkmunkey6969
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Darrell Taylor wrote:..... to anyone reading,we are not arguing here just discussing different views/thoughts,ideas,theorys that we hold from our own experiences.....
I had a similar situation with my ex-wife, we never argued.....to the untrained eye it may often have looked as if we were arguing when she got me in a head lock and shouted furiously at me, but in fact she was just pointing out that everything she said was right and everything I said was wrong. Fond memories.....I miss those playful times.
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