lets talk about torque

Anything related to Lambrettas... ask tech questions, post helpful info, or just read and learn.
cezeta
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col265 wrote:
cezeta wrote:no its a ancilotti clubman....re welded. they work well once you come to terms with the fact that the need welding up.

So do MB weld them up/alter before they sell them? Wandering why they're selling them £40 more than anyone else? Or is it a different pipe?
im not even sure if they sell them tbh, we just had undernieth brackets added and extra welding added as the started to break.

there is nothing wrong with the af one so dont go changing for no reason
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Adspeed
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Cezeta

As I say I know the engines are different but you refer to the characteristics of the graph as .....
cezeta wrote:.....this is exactly whats needed. why fanny about with small cc revvy engines when you can have a "lambretta" with plenty on tap to go places 8-)
In my eyes its pretty much what people are running already whether it be with a clubman or not.

Taking that into account even with a clubman £/HP or £/Torque probably not the best. This is a 255cc engine after all.....

The MB dyno was one of the highest reading ones in the 'scootering' test, can someone confirm the difference in the mag to give people a guide between JB or Chiselspeed to MB?? Sure it was something like 3 or 4HP higher on that particular bike, TS I think??. So not an exact science but where does that leave the figures as a comparison to JB or Chiselspeed dynos.......

Think FOXs Rapido 250 (been on for years) was doing something like 20/21HP with a clubman plenty of torque (chisel dyno). And that thing has done some miles!!

I would think if you put a Ancillotti clubman say on vespanics TS you'll lose some topend but I bet it still holds its own against it.

All of course just my opinion :D HAPPY NEW YEAR ;)

PS As the syaing goes its not about how big it is ;) its what ya do with it that counts!! :D :D
cezeta
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the bit im missing here adspeed is what advice you are giving?

you are making a number of comments but with no conclusion.

now i have ridden your tunes and i know we both dont go after the same thing so im not expecting us to agree totaly on ideals but you fail to see what I am asking from an engine. in fact you failed to bother to ask so im assuming you are more interested in peak power figures which i am not?

i have asked your advice on countless times but you have never managed to answer but you manage to criticise easily.

i know this is a scooter forum and a bit of p155 taking or wanting to be a big fish with the nicest desert boots is often the motivation but in this instance you are suggesting that we are wrong to buy the rt255 which in a traditional lambretta engine layout produces better performance than most road going ts1 s.

now i realise that bolting on a rb kit, matching and flowing will produce more power.....i could even put a "cezetaspeed" sticker on it and claim the credit for af rayspeeds work but thats not what i / we are looking for.

as you know mbd did an rt tune ts1 for me, mark offered me many options and one was the dyno gragh that you posted and that many of the tuners on this forum praised on another thread having seen them produce that power on their dynoes. so if i wanted it then a simple yes would have got it but i was in search of something differant and thats what i got. less power than the regular rt ts1 but with the power where i wanted it delivered in the way i wanted it and most inportantly in a package that feels balanced and refined like a more modern two stroke road bike.

i dont ride in the peak power for long, 500 rpm within the overall range is irrelavant so i ignore it in favour of a gear that is long and forgiving as there is power across the range.

plus as said already there is not a budget restraint, none the less the rt is not ott cost wise. i got a fw quotes from the tuners i respected when i did the ts1 and they were all roughly the same and all wanted to use mbd products anyway.

the 64mm stroke crank is a bit dearer than normal but that differance i could easily spend by going out in the evening so its relative. the rt barrel kit is a bit dearer so you could tune a mugello 225 to be the same maybe but once you have tuned the mugello you are back at the price of an rt because the rt comes already for the road where as the mugello needs a lot of work. in fact the rt 225 will produce pretty much standard ts1 power out of the box and the mugello only 12 bhp.

then the mugello does not come with a gasketless recessed head, as this is a common reason for engine failure even on an adspeed tune then this is very desirable for the rider that would rather not get his hands dirty or spend the day waiting for the aa van.

so, mbds dyno reads a bhp or two higher?..... but the motors are still looking good on other peoples dynos, they are a bit more expencive?.....well thats because you get more for your money im thinking. if you want to save money by matching bits and bobs from other machines then this is not a bad route either but not my choice. the ts1 / rb is more powerfull?....buy one of those then its all down to personal choice and expectation.

So given my brief of low tune high cc motor with a left hand filtered carb and a clubman pipe what would you be advising or offering adspeed?

"PS As the syaing goes its not about how big it is its what ya do with it that counts!! " if only that were true :?

(To know what you prefer instead of humbly saying Amen to what the world tells you you ought to prefer, is to have kept your soul alive.
-Robert Louis Stevenson ) :frog: ;)
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Adspeed
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Feck, I'm sure if I read all that again it would be clearer but I can't lifes too short. :shock: :D

All I'm saying is Cezeta for a long period of time you have praised big cc's. The grunt of a four stroke etc, not just on this forum but others also.....

A graph pops up of an RT255 and you announce, ".....this is exactly whats needed. why fanny about with small cc revvy engines when you can have a "lambretta" with plenty on tap to go places" but if you look at it, is it any different to whats already out there. Thats all.
I nosey at s**t loads of dyno sheets down at Chisels so I'd like to think I getta feel of whats about.....

Its no stump puller is it?? If you saw the graph and didn't know what it was would you say it was a 255cc RT engine??

Maybe I'm just dissapointed with the results or dissapointed that all the banter re a big cc four stroke type stump puller is over and you've found what ya after. :)

The forum is not used as a p155 take or to pretend I know what I'm talking about. I just say what I see, I wish others sometimes would do the same rather than just having a PM fest but thats the way it is!

At the end of the day I'm an Electrician and a family man now and they are my life not these feckin scooters thats for sure!! :D :D

Just food for thought what makes the 80cc's do 22hp. Its not massive cc's...........Personally for me the Lambretta engine setup does not lend itself to massive cc's, but again thats just my opinion.....

Once again I'm not here just to rip things apart, if this meets your requirements thats feckin ace. A happy customer is your best advertising I reckon. 8-)
Last edited by Adspeed on Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Just realised my reply was nearly as long as yours C!! :D It must be catching!!
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sean brady scooters
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this whole torque debate seems to be confusing to a lot of folk...
so please let me try to help,and please forgive me for putting this in really basic/simple terms...and basically generalising.

lets for example say that you want to achieve a torquey motor that produces say a healthy figure of 16 ft/lbs


then here are your basic choices...
NUMBER ONE......Massive cc /low revs....relativly low BMEP
NUMBER TWO.....smaller cc /lots of revs HIGH BMEP
NUMBER THREE....a compromise of the two above...MEDIUM BMEP
the trouble with number one is that really cc,s would need to be in excess of 300cc to satisfy most folks needs at say 6500 revs or less.
no 2 often requires extensive tuning/expense and is often shunned by scooterists who prefer clubman exhausts.. :lol:

number three ,this is the way to go of course but is often overlooked cos most prefer their own ideas and extreme preferance.
Sean Brady Scooters - 01765 690 698
cezeta
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Adspeed wrote:Just realised my reply was nearly as long as yours C!! :D It must be catching!!
its the war of attrition :)
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sean brady scooters
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the answer to all this torque talk lies within a compromise of cc,s and revs.... :D
Sean Brady Scooters - 01765 690 698
cezeta
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Adspeed wrote:Feck, I'm sure if I read all that again it would be clearer but I can't lifes too short. :shock: :D

All I'm saying is Cezeta for a long period of time you have praised big cc's. The grunt of a four stroke etc, not just on this forum but others also.....

A graph pops up of an RT255 and you announce, ".....this is exactly whats needed. why fanny about with small cc revvy engines when you can have a "lambretta" with plenty on tap to go places" but if you look at it, is it any different to whats already out there. Thats all.
I nosey at s**t loads of dyno sheets down at Chisels so I'd like to think I getta feel of whats about.....

Its no stump puller is it?? If you saw the graph and didn't know what it was would you say it was a 255cc RT engine??

Maybe I'm just dissapointed with the results or dissapointed that all the banter re a big cc four stroke type stump puller is over and you've found what ya after. :)

The forum is not used as a p155 take or to pretend I know what I'm talking about. I just say what I see, I wish others sometimes would do the same rather than just having a PM fest but thats the way it is!

At the end of the day I'm an Electrician and a family man now and they are my life not these feckin scooters thats for sure!! :D :D

Just food for thought what makes the 80cc's do 22hp. Its not massive cc's...........Personally for me the Lambretta engine setup does not lend itself to massive cc's, but again thats just my opinion.....
Once again I'm not here just to rip things apart, if this meets your requirements thats feckin ace. A happy customer is your best advertising I reckon. 8-)


Well firstly my comments that you refer to were in relation to my own engine in my series 1. its built and on the road now and im happy. on reflection my observations are that there is more focus on flywheel weight needed than i first thought. i have three flywheels and with each i get very differant results like they are differant motors. but all in all its creamy smooth to ride with not too much step in the power curve to make it on/off. it does just wind on like a four stroke.

im not sure mark thought i was doing the right thing either but its nice so what the heck.

I dont think the lammy lends it self to high revs, i fear its too fragile though when i had a road race with a race pipe there was a rpm range where it all fell into place and was nice and smooth. the draw back is the power was from 6500 - 9k so add a passenger or luggage and what a pain in the ass. this is why i guese that i went extreme the other way.

My next ped I wanted to be more understated. my brother has a rapido 225 with a clubman which is a realy nice scooter to ride but with 16bhp we agree its not quite enough. He likes to ride home alone flat out too which means there is nothing left on tap in those outside lane headwind moments. But he isnt interested in a ts1 ect as there is a nice quality to the rattly clubman based motor. hence the cc route.

and so thats why i m not going on about four stroke power anymore, its because that motor is done and we have a differant set of objectives on the next two motors.

having said that, im an electrician too and the way things are looking it will be a year or two before i find some money to fund it.

sean is right though, its a balance between tuned or big cc, mark lowered my exhaust port and squared it, widened everything and increased the capacity. add to this the v force reeds that open early and the b race grunty pipe and i think this was a good compromise. annoyingly i took tofday off to have a play and see what it revs too but the ice never thored today so it was a waste of time :roll:
cezeta
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Congratulations to Darrel with his RT255 as it was the fastest scoooter on the day at the mad mile while running in still.

He must be pleased..........Im :mrgreen: with envy.

taken from lcgb, speeds are gps recorded.

"results are in........the mad mile is slightly less than 1 Km end to end

Rapido 250 32mm VHSA taffy 68mph

Race Rapido 225 30mm phbh NK, AF Flywheel 75.8mph


S3 TS1 225 35mm TMX, Ancilliotti Clubman Freshly rebuilt 73.9mph

Stage 4 200 30mm phbh Clubman 64.7mph

RT220 30mm phbh VW Reverse clubman 67mph

S1 TS1 225 30mm phbh Taffy touring tune 74.5mph really must change those rings thats my excuse

RT255 81.1mph "

well done Darrel/MBD, cant knock that from a touring motor?
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