Question for the engine tuners.

[sydduckett]

Well said.....

[DJB]

That statement is the most stupid mis-informed thing you have ever said Martin. It also shows you have a lot to learn my friend. "Charlie's tuning is driven by what his computer tells him? " Are you mad? So what has he been doing for the last 12 years previous to the arrival of a computer in his workshop? You dont get that kind knowledge by buying computer programs.. you get it by testing and innovation. You know so so little of where he is at, what he is doing. And posting rubbish like that simply confirms this.

He thinks he's mate's with John Baulcombe as well. He isn't.

John used to tolerate him hanging around the workshop and feed him snippets of information, which he proceeded to misinterpret and then relay to others via the Lcgb forum.

And then there's the small frame debacle anyone know how to cable up the gears?

Below the belt. Grow up.

[Chutney Brownlove]

Hey, Martin may well be a good bloke with good intentions, but the log-in name 'Knowledge' as a massive misnomer and he continues to be found wanting.

How does the saying go? Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see and you won't go far wrong.

Apologies if that is a terrible misquote.

[sean brady scooters]

i have no idea whatsoever as to why martins user name is "knowledge"
only he can explain that..?
but user names are just that...user names.
and i,m sure it was not chosen to profess that he was some kind of genius..
it may just be a nick name or whatever....who knows..?
we have here on this site many unusual user names......
"cuntspeed " for eg......but he is not a c**t....

martin may not of course be a genius such as charlie is,but is on the other hand very knowledgeable and does in fact know a lot more about scoots than most ordinary scooterists.
so come on guys
cut some slack here....

[paulmgreen]

does that mean drunkmunkey is never actually drunk? lol

[sean brady scooters]

theres many an exception to every rule i suppose.....
but in dans case ,his user name is very apt....sometimes..

[cezeta]

Blimey, a big question , eh J1MS?

OK, I see the modern history of development of tuning as three phases

Phase one.

This the careful development approach. This equates to filing a bit off here, and testing the bike by riding it (or racing it) and recording it all. Then modify the exhaust and test it by riding it, and then recording it all. Then change the carb, and testing it by riding it, and record it all. Then file a bit more off and ... well you get the idea.

This is quite a slow way of developing an engine, but the methodical approach was the only way for many years, and if you went too far, you could always look back at your notes and go back to where you were.

The great progressive development tuners were Raplh Saxelby, the Frankland brothers and Dave Webster (and many others).

Phase Two

This is relatively recent and involves the use of dynos. Many dealers have dynos but I am not convinced that they all know how to use them. A dyno is a tool that allows you to show the behaviour of the engine in a visual format (graph). The great advantage is that you can make a direct comparison between two set-ups without resorting to "I think it feels a bit better than last time".

You must use the same dyno for all your development. People who make a dyno work for them are the likes of John Balcomb and many of the phase one tuners have moved up to use dynos to prove their worth and add to their knowledge.

Phase Three (and this should answer your question J1MS)

The computer age. There are a number of two stroke tuning programs available that can take the guess-work out of the porting. They are not the complete answer, but they do have advantages. For example, using phase one development, you might raise the transfers, only to discover that it doesn't work. In cyber tuning, you can raise the transfers and see the results, without the expense of either the porting, or putting it right again (which can be very expensive) if it doesn’t work.
Phase three development still requires a dyno in order to test the tuning work, but it does help because you can immediately correlate the dyno results against the theoretical power output as shown by the computer program. Nice.

I suspect that I have made phase three development sound too easy. As with all computers, if you put rubbish in, you get rubbish out. The really, really important thing to about this computer based tuning is to measure EVERYTHING, input the data carefully and reproduce the computer’s output perfectly in the metal of the engine.

I believe that this is the way that Charlie Edmonds works. His race results indicate that he probably does the measuring, calculations and interpretation of the computer ‘s results better than anyone else. Frankly, much of his innovation is driven by what his computer is suggesting.

Me, I’m barely at phase one

in the context of this being a forum to discuss scooter tuning i thought this coming from someone whos final statement admits interest but at a very primitive stage........was very accurate.

Kylie my girlfriend sponsors a top touring car team so we have the pleasure of spending time with the team in the pits. Knowledge's statement reflects exactly what their engineers have explained as the evolution into the technological age.

From the computer to the race track is EXACTLY the process for the touring cars and the results are monitored from the pits by radio link giving all sorts of info.

in contrast we barely understand how to read a egt gauge ffs

I don't know knowledge but I have taken his advice in the past and its been spot on. I don't think he claims to know how charlie likes his eggs in the morning....that job is already taken I believe but to repeat some common knowledge was harmless enough.

If my comment is not worthy enough for the big fish.....well that's tuff poo I don't believe in god.....I'm a Darwinist.

ps....has the scooter scene gone into a seasonal depressive phase or something.....wierd :flaming:

[drunkmunkey6969]

ps....has the scooter scene gone into a seasonal depressive phase or something.....wierd :flaming:

I was wondering the same thing myself.

[Bufficus]

in contrast we barely understand how to read a egt gauge ffs

Ain't that the truth, how many people have their correctly calibrated probe the correct distance from the piston?

I don't believe in god.....I'm a Darwinist.

Amen to that. Richard Dawkins is my current hero.

[100mphlambrettaclub]

Bloody hell this is getting a bit heated anyway there is one simple answer to this . It doesnt matter where the tuner gets his knowledge from wether its from reading books ,sitting on a dyno. a computer programme or reading it off the back of a crisp packet its still got to be tried on the track. When i was sprinting and before you say it was only driving in a straight line often we were looking 1/100 th of a second. Which ever tuner i was working there would only be one change at a time so refering back to what knowledge said phase one. A pain staking way of doing things but if there were two changes which had made it better. Back then 1997-2001 the tuners were learning from books and using dynoes but primative to what we have now. Computer programmes like Beta first came around in 2000 but were pretty basic. I think where knowledege got it wrong was by putting it in phases to be honest it should be all condensed in one.
As regards Charlie I think he is very methodical in his approach and im sure he is using the one change at a time rule. I think he is very knowledgable and he probably does use all the info he can but where ever he gets it from its still got to be put in to reality. As jims first quoted in the thread two stroke tuning in the Lambretta world is moving at its fastest rate ever and becoming more complicated to acheive ,those who have the greatest understanging of this technology i.e Charlie are going to be at the front of the grid.
One other thing to note here and the thing i think most people miss is that it doesnt matter how much power you are creating unless you are using it to its full potential then its a bit of a waste. I spent years developing my chasis from power to weight to correct handling to make sure the whole package was 100% efficient. Its not all about power mainly it is but not all.