Re: Super Monza online at LTH!
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:02 am
it was stampede who provided the link to the pipedesign link
Scooterotica
The UK's No1 Lambretta & Vespa Scooter Forum.
https://www.scooterotica.org/forum/
Super Monza online at LTH!
Page 3 of 4
Re: Super Monza online at LTH!
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:05 am
thanks, shocky, edited now. I've had a look at pipedesign before and may try out the Bullet on my TS1 if the DevTour ever falls apart.
Re: Super Monza online at LTH!
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:14 am
Hi everyone
The supermonza looks an exciting bit of kit!
The idea of selling a kit with everything from inlet/ignition to exhaust is a fantastic idea in my opinion.
Also i really like the idea of each individual kit being checked over before being sent out.
After all (and this is not a dig at anyone as all kits have variable manufacturing tolerances) factory bikes through to all performance kits have different manufacturing tolerances, isn't this is what blueprinting an engine is all about?
How many times on this forum have we heard about heads that provide too much compression or tapered bores or not enough bore clearance mentioned!
Yes, why not buy the bits seperately (i like messing around with tuning as much as the next scooterist) but dont moan if it all goes Pete Tong!
I'm just highlighting what i personally think is a great idea for someone who wants to bolt on a kit with a jetted carb and go!
The supermonza looks an exciting bit of kit!
The idea of selling a kit with everything from inlet/ignition to exhaust is a fantastic idea in my opinion.
Also i really like the idea of each individual kit being checked over before being sent out.
After all (and this is not a dig at anyone as all kits have variable manufacturing tolerances) factory bikes through to all performance kits have different manufacturing tolerances, isn't this is what blueprinting an engine is all about?
How many times on this forum have we heard about heads that provide too much compression or tapered bores or not enough bore clearance mentioned!
Yes, why not buy the bits seperately (i like messing around with tuning as much as the next scooterist) but dont moan if it all goes Pete Tong!
I'm just highlighting what i personally think is a great idea for someone who wants to bolt on a kit with a jetted carb and go!
Re: Super Monza online at LTH!
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:29 am
Isn't that what happened when I bought my TS1 years ago (from Taffspeed)? They checked and measured everything and sold it with cylinder head (doweled to cylinder), piston, ignition, their exhaust, and carburettor already jetted? I think the biggest difference with the Super Monza is it's a more highly tuned kit and it comes with a bespoke exhaust. So if nothing is changed i.e. port timing, ignition, carb, then everything should work as advertised. I've put off buying an RB kit, RT kit, or any of the newer kits and I'm still on my 10 year old TS1 engine because I've been waiting on the Super Monza so I could choose from all available options. All this choice is great!
Re: Super Monza online at LTH!
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:14 pm
Just to ask the obvious question, all kits being checked over will iron out kit production variance but there are some large inherent variance in the crank to base gasket dimensions +/- 0.5mm is not uncommon and this will directly effect compression ratios, on a tuned engine that will be quite important (and obviously something the manufacturer could not account for). It would be a very brave man to say that tolerance problems are removed and blissful 30BHP trouble free riding awaits.
I like to see different ideas come through the industry and re-orientating the reed valve is new. What would be a nagging worry for me is how the R/H side of the cylinder will cool effectively compared to the L/H with the reed chamber obstructing flow, I guess the induction will perform some cooling but it'll be a bit of an assumption. There are some bright bunnies on the case so it'll be interesting.
I like to see different ideas come through the industry and re-orientating the reed valve is new. What would be a nagging worry for me is how the R/H side of the cylinder will cool effectively compared to the L/H with the reed chamber obstructing flow, I guess the induction will perform some cooling but it'll be a bit of an assumption. There are some bright bunnies on the case so it'll be interesting.
Re: Super Monza online at LTH!
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:25 pm
I think the SM is a excellent piece of engineering.
But every time (it sounds to me), when somebody talks about this kit with the full package (barrel, exhaust, ignition, carb etc) you´ve got a 30hp p&p package and that´s it.
Nobody ever talkes about all the mistakes a customer could make with such a p&p kit.
Set the ingition wrong, use the carb in a different height or another country, forget to check the squish, use another another long stroke crankshaft or rod, don´t do the porting to the casing in the correct way, etc.
All of that could kill your engine or you aren´t able to get the 30hp.
Tuning a Lambretta is a little bit more than p&p (imho).
But every time (it sounds to me), when somebody talks about this kit with the full package (barrel, exhaust, ignition, carb etc) you´ve got a 30hp p&p package and that´s it.
Nobody ever talkes about all the mistakes a customer could make with such a p&p kit.
Set the ingition wrong, use the carb in a different height or another country, forget to check the squish, use another another long stroke crankshaft or rod, don´t do the porting to the casing in the correct way, etc.
All of that could kill your engine or you aren´t able to get the 30hp.
Tuning a Lambretta is a little bit more than p&p (imho).
Re: Super Monza online at LTH!
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:40 pm
Agreed, you will never iron out customer error however, the main thing i was trying to point out was, that sometimes when kits are produced due to manufacturing errors, bore clearance is wrong or compression in the head is wrong on the odd kit in a batch.
If its checked over at least you will have something that works as designed.
Granted, jetting ,timing etc can be cocked up due to customer error but the base settings should be pretty close if the tolerances are kept to a minimum.
Regarding different cranks, from what other people have said, the crank is going to be part of the final kit?
I'm looking forward to seeing it when its released in the uk.
If its checked over at least you will have something that works as designed.
Granted, jetting ,timing etc can be cocked up due to customer error but the base settings should be pretty close if the tolerances are kept to a minimum.
Regarding different cranks, from what other people have said, the crank is going to be part of the final kit?
I'm looking forward to seeing it when its released in the uk.
Re: Super Monza online at LTH!
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:24 pm
I'll repeat again... I have not seen a ts1 or rb that produces this power and may I add with a decent spread of torque. Its possible but with masses of work..but these kits have a limiting factor and as a knowledgable bloke you should be able to see that.... here the work is done. There is no masses of work.. maybe the figures are simply a discrepency from Europe dynos compared to uk ones? An example was the first dyno runs in europe of the M1r which recorded 31hp.. it actually made 24hp on a dynojet in the uk. Please call Marco at Lth if you wish to buy one of those barrels. The Uk Supermonza will be brought to spec by Charlie as in all manufacturing you can never get the exact tolerances. The supplied carb is pre jetted with powerjet.. The crank too will be different to the LTH kit. Much different. If you feel you know more than the designer then by all means buy one and go play.GP Kevo wrote:Tony, you are making assumptions about other kits that are false. There are 30 hp TS1's (tuned or with special exhaust) that make peak power well under 10,000 RPMs as Stampede provided a link from German firm Pipedesign. I'd like to see that dyno graph next to a Super Monza dyno chart.
I think we might find what's lacking from the TS1, though, is torque when compared to an RB 250 and most likely when compared to the Super Monza. When I talked to Ian Frankland 2 years ago about the RB 25 engines he was about to build, he had emphatically stated that they would be touring engines, not high revving race engines. He also stated at the time that they might require better cooling, possibly water cooling to the cylinder head, to deal with thermal issues when running the engine hard over long distances. It looks like the Super Monza may be a cooler running solution and if this is the case it should sell very well.
LTH are offering the kit as parts but in UK it will be sold only as a complete kit vetted by Charlie Edmonds? What exactly will he do with the kits? Check that the ports are at the correct position? Is there that much variation in the production of these cylinders? Jet the carb? Check parts for defects? What's to stop people buying from LTH and experimenting (at least with different carburettors) with it? SuperMonza Kit €725 SuperMonza pipe €670+ varitronic €342 + 30 mm Delorto PHBH carb €85 = €1822 or £1545 (less shipping). That could be much less if a buyer already has an ignition and carburettor he wants to use.
I forgot to ask if this kit is only for 107 mm conrod and 58 stroke crankshaft? Is there a recommended crank / rod combination to use with the Super Monza?
Thank you for your responses and information.
And thats me done.. I'm not getting into arguments over how good ts1s are etc.. I was asked to answer some questions by Charley.. I think its covered now.
Cheers.
Re: Super Monza online at LTH!
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:10 pm
Tony, I'm not that knowledgeable especially about the Super Monza which is why I have so many questions. I'm only a potential customer. But I have to weigh it against it's competitors. As for the dynos, I think in Italy they measure power at the crank, but in Germany and UK they measure power at the rear wheel. Yes, maybe there is masses of work done to these cylinders - I don't know, but that doesn't discount what, say, Taffspeed was offering with their RB 25 build. Ian showed on their dyno his first build at 31 hp with a wide power spread and lots of torque. Because you haven't seen these engines doesn't mean that they don't exist. But you're right, probably there was a lot of tuning done to them and there is a cost to that but there is also a cost to what Charlie does and I'm only trying to compare what's available and make an informed decision as to what kit I'll buy next with my hard earned money. Will the kit perform as advertised? Will it truly be reliable for long, fast journeys? Will it be fairly fuel efficient (compared to the other options)? If the answers prove to be yes on all three questions then I'm in and my next engine is a Super Monza. 
Thank you for taking the time to answer our questions.
Thank you for taking the time to answer our questions.
Re: Super Monza online at LTH!
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:51 pm
im hoping there will be a demo bike, ive ridden just about everything and i think i set my sights too high as im always disapointed.
bhp means nothing as the comparison between my ts1 240 and my brothers rt225 shows. the rt pulls lower bhp but concistantly from 2500rpm to to 8000 rpm where as the ts1 is still peaky with a good dose of acceleration but on the road the rt wins the race. first over the finish line is the winner regardless of what the dyno says......and with a clubman
if what tony says comes true then im hoping its a 30bhp version of richard taylors gt186 which so far has been the most refined well balanced engine in a lambretta frame that ive ever ridden.....just needs to be twice the size
bhp means nothing as the comparison between my ts1 240 and my brothers rt225 shows. the rt pulls lower bhp but concistantly from 2500rpm to to 8000 rpm where as the ts1 is still peaky with a good dose of acceleration but on the road the rt wins the race. first over the finish line is the winner regardless of what the dyno says......and with a clubman
if what tony says comes true then im hoping its a 30bhp version of richard taylors gt186 which so far has been the most refined well balanced engine in a lambretta frame that ive ever ridden.....just needs to be twice the size