The end of the Lambretta crank as we know it ???

[Muttley McLadd]

Tony . . . I'd suggest that things may not have moved on all that much because lap times in DJ's day are not all that different from now. What does show here is that there's more than one way to skin a monkey, with wildly different tuning strategies providing similar results.

Slightly faster, actually..

[J1MS]

Tony . . . I'd suggest that things may not have moved on all that much because lap times in DJ's day are not all that different from now. What does show here is that there's more than one way to skin a monkey, with wildly different tuning strategies providing similar results.

Slightly faster, actually..

I would put most of the improvments in slightly faster speeds or lap times down to better brakes, wder choice of higher quality tyres and improved suspension setups first.... before I woulld attribute to much credit to crank design whether it be LPC or HPC...

[tony]

Things havent moved on that much? Thats just ridiculous. When in the 80's or 90's would have I set an outright ,all class lap record on a smallframe on a major circuit? Its not cos of me..its because of the high output of the motor..Why are group 4 machines beating the legendary Msc Cooler (and every other group 6 bike out there)which in the 90's was unbeatable ,,and ,its been improved now.. The times? Show me the times. I've been trying to get this sorted for the bsso and the problem is that some time sheets from that era are not available to me. So if anyone has any copies.. Guy has been most helpful but there are dates missing... When would you hear of a piston port grp 4 lambretta finishing 11th on from 30th on the grid in a batch of 600/1000cc bemse superbikes at mallory? Not until recent times.

You have to remember that circuits change. Layouts change and so does the surface..as I think has happened at 3 sisters. For instance I lapped there only 1.5 secs off charlie's fastest lap in 1990 on a cast iron 100cc vespa on drum brakes. How? Why? it must be the surface and grip because that bike had about 14hp and I cant ride. If he raced there back then he would of lapped probably 5 secs quicker at least(and that includes stuart too).

I know Dave's grp 4 bike was messed with but it made circa 24hp when tested about 4/5 yrs ago. Graham Best's group 6 watercooled disc valve made 30hp. Bob Wests group 4 even 5/6 years ago rumoured to make 27. My own vespa at its best made 22hp with a grp4 150 motor.

Things have moved on in a big way and they will do. This is not knocking the heroes.. Norrie was/is mine as a tuner/rider.. I know if I took my bike back to 1990 I would beat everyone at say Cadwell easy. I know because I was there racing at that time and have seen the progression and felt just how much faster we are going today. The new technology is there. New people..it happens in all motorsport.. its called development.

[jonny snatchsniffer]

so who gets the knowledge from all this then, do all the racers have an apprentice that will get to learn from them or does everyone have to do it the hard way, me for one loves the information passed on, obviously all the racers have something to hide but books loke the dj and norrie one is what started me off, after all weve all ridden a standard scooter.
as for dyno results on this lpc hpc thing, as has been said how can you compare the two directly when both would need a different exhaust to work the way they should ? as the lpc would work better with a sucky pipe and hpc would work better with a shite pipe, f@@k this im off to the pub and when youve all published your results and my spy comes back from taking your engines apart whilst your kipping, ill have the fastest pushbike in the west

[J1MS]

Tony is right, the small frames have moved on massively.... I was more aiming my comments towards the Lambretta crank thread and Lambretta lap speeds... Tony you may remember me talking to you at Cadwell two races ago and saying, that if Norrie's or Terry's Vespas were on the track today and at there best, they would not get close by a long way... There really is that much of an advance on the Smallframe's state of tune...
But the Lambrettas in Group 4 are a little faster on lap speeds but its nearly 20 years since Mr Webster and the likes raced these scooters... They are now allowed to use modern braking, outboard discs with Nissin brake caliper's these would surely give an advantage over race distance.. Then sticky more modern tyres, these must aid a little allowing a little more power to be put down for longer before they go off the boil... Suspension on most scooters used Kawasaki steering dampers about the best there was back then and a standard rear shock or modified RD one... I think if you raced todays scooters on this combination it might cost just A little off the lap time... But I wouldnt think the small frame engine Tony uses and Mr Edmonds tuned and built, could be caught even if it were fitted with wheel barrow tyres and was towing a trailer... It really has moved on that much...

[DJ200]

Ok... ok.... Then let's think of some improvements. I said before there were few, in the words of Chairman Mao, "Great Leaps Forward". But on reflection I can think of a few. Ever being one to admire the "engineering" in a race scooter, my first real scooter hero was Roger Myers with his Green FlowRite 150 Special. I remember him stomping authority and a lap record at Lydden many decades ago. Rogers' scooter had a sleeved Tv175 barrel. That was in the days where we used Avon Cling tyres, and you could tell who was really trying cos they'd wear the tops off the sidewall lettering! By the 1980's my Dj 150 Grp3 had been short-stroked to 54mm, and I would regularly win standards, and also the 150 Specials class on the same bike. But the writing was on the wall, and so an engineering GLF was the first "proper" Dj 150 Special. Moving up from stage one, which initially ran the Grp3 motor in a Grp5 frame, I built a new motor. This was 54stroke, but now with 200cc case & cylinder sleeved at 60mm and 153cc with m-a-s-s-i-v-e transfer ports. All done in the garage at home with a Black&Decker. Stunk the place out when I cooked the barrel in the oven! Lynne wasn’t too happy! With a new exhaust as used on an Upton Manx 125 kart engine, this was incredible, and I blitzed the opposition first time out at Oulton Park, probably Britain’s bravest race circuit. At that time Ian & Terry Taffspeed were in Leicester Lambretta Racing Team, (LLRT), and Ian had a Disc Valve 200cc bike, ex Steve Moore. Steve worked at Suzuki and so had a ready supply of ex-Sheene magnesium Mikunis, one of which was written off each time he dropped it on the left!
I entered this bike in Grp6, but the super trendy Disc-Valver only lasted a lap and then seized to a halt. Ian said "Enter second Grp6 race on the 150....." Grp6 Specials? On a 150?? Now we all knew this was a teensy weensy bit naughty.... the 150 was UNDER the class limit, and I'd already run the other bike in the first race. John Ronald was Start Marshall as I slunk onto the back of the grid, and I really expected to get kicked out, but no-one noticed. The flag dropped, and off we went. I passed everyone up to second, and arrived behind Mr Kemp into turn one. I passed him around the outside at Cascades and cleared off with a point to prove. I completed just one flying lap over the line, hit the brakes and parked the bike. I was there sat on the Armco as Ray droned past! That one lap smashed the Grp6 record. This ShortStroke 150cc 60x54 Dj150Special Grp5 bike was maybe my favourite race scooter. It was incredibly fast, maybe ahead of it's time. Many riders, Mick White, Ralph Saxelby, maybe some others, all rode various permutations of that scooter to many many race wins over several years. So many different people it became known as the Taxi! We'd all be droning into Gerrards on our Grp6's, tipping into the corner and Mick White would come buzzing up on the inside, probably just in front of Kev Stanzl and Norrie on LC1, just DESPERATE to beat us all into the turn! He'd sail through to the outside, all crossed up, having arrived way too fast. But it was fun!

"The older I get the better I was". Dj. F**k me! 1980's? Was it REALLY that long ago?

[sean brady scooters]

thats a great post mr webster...............and thanks for joining in on this forum............

[mark]

not telling him off sean for not introducing himself?????


lol

[J1MS]

I remember going up to a race track, I think it was up past Morcambe where we were talking to Mick White about barrels on his 150 special, he had a couple of barrels short stroke 150, in the back of his car.... He had trailered Daves 200 Special and his 150 special and had the usual spares in the boot... Mick gave me and my mate Dave who was running a group 3, 150, a look at the barrels which were sleeved down 200 cast Iron barrels, bridged exhaust and six transferes on one, the other barrel was a little less ported but both looked quality... He had them with him as back up just incase... The porting on cast iron barrels was as good as I had ever seen and the ratio between transfere feed area and bore was far better than could be achieved on a 200 barrel, plus with the over square bore & high reving nature of this setup... I can see why it was so fast but must have been a little harder to ride and keep it on the boil... If only Mick White had ever completed all the races in a full race season I am sure he could well have been the rider to beat... He was a quality rider that few today have probably ever seen race...

[sean brady scooters]

i would really love MR webster to give us an intro in the "welcome section."...........just cos i know it would go berserk...................
potentially 800 plus members saying "welcome dave"...............

normally we would of course like to see some sort of intro from a new member...........but in this special case...........surely you can understand why i would not dare to insist on it..........................
its not often that we get such heroes on here..............
that really do not require an intro............