Water Cooled Suzuki 220 MRB

[elgarra]

Didn't Oz (OAP) strengthen that weak point on his PTS1E?

[drunkmunkey6969]

Dan, I reckon if I'd posted up that barrel with my name on it everyone would be saying "small ports mate".

I think you are very wrong there Tony, i reckon that people would say....wow, nice piece of engineering Tony.....tell us more about the ports and the work you've done. So maybe you're being a bit harsh?

I'm not suggesting MB are the world priemier Vespa tuners.....in fact i dare say MB would shudder at the thought of anyone saying as such, i was just posting up the scoot as a whole initially, becuase i like the scoot and all its little trick bits, but then also highlighting the amount of work that has gone into this. The reason is because (in my opinion) whether someone (anyone - not just MB) does the worlds fastest tune or just a basic touring tune, when they put a lot of work into something its worth looking at to see what they've done. Isnt it?

Sorry if my suggestion of 'drooling' seems to have got your back up......its just my way of expressing my interest in the kit.......and i'm not here to defend their work, or argue the case as to why they did what......i just thought it was something that we dont often see, and that lots of Vespa (and maybe even Lambretta) owners would like to have a look at. Maybe i was a bit over-enthusiastic in my celebrations of the kit......i do get a bit excited when i see something different.......but i just liked it....Vespa's are always the underdog and the neglected scooter brand, so i was pleased to have something actually worth looking at, that would grab peoples attention. I know you are at the top of your game in terms of Vespa tuning, so i certainly wouldnt attempt to get into a vespa-tuning debate with you.....i just think its a cool scoot.

As for the kit itself......the basis of the kit is of course a Malossi 210, and it uses an off-set transfer, Suzuki GT750 piston at 70mm, hence an iron liner........as the the piston is bigger than what a Malossi cylinder can take if just bored out. I guess that for reliability the iron liner was made to a thickness to be reliable, and as the original alloy spigot can be so weak, especially with distortion from welding the best thing to do was to Iron liner it. The heat disspipation benefit that an ally/nicasil liner brings is obvious, but switching to an iron liner for other reasons may outweigh the original benefits....and surely is not so much of a problem when the new cylinder wil be watercooled anyway?

So as the outer diameter of the liner is increased, the casing have been bored out, again weak casings dictate how big a Malossi cylinder could be bored without welding the crap Swiss cheese casings. I'm sure MB could have quiet easily have made massive ports and over-tuned it........hell......if they've gone to all the trouble of doing this conversion, its the easiest thing in the world to start carving a cylinder up with wide ports isnt it. But.....as we and many others have found Vespa casing fall apart, so i'd guess that is why its a good idea not to over-tune P range Vespas......these casings have cracks like a spiders web now......whats the point in another 5bhp.....these casings just couldnt handle it??

Anyway..........i'm just chewing the fat with you and speculating, and as i say........its not our work to defend....i just happened to find the conversion very interesting and find it more intruiging to try and figure out why someone did something a particular way, rather than just writing it off as wrong etc. The owner seems to be very happy with the scoot (right up until the point it went pop ) and if you are genuinely interetsed in further info, i would be happy to both dyno it, and then GPS it (customer permission pending) and get some graphs, figures and maybe even a port map up on the forum if i get chance...........

[Fruitjuice]

Didn't Oz (OAP) strengthen that weak point on his PTS1E?

Oz welded an extra bolt lug on the clutch cover, but I've also seen pictures of another casing where a strenghtening plate was welded inside the casing next to the gearbox with a hole for the rear axle that was welded to several points on the inside of the casing, kind of like a spidersweb on the inside to keep everything together.
I've also thought about having a primary axle made with a longer clutch side end that sticks out of the casing an extra inch, and slide a block of aluminium with the correct hole through it over the end and weld that to the casing, thus making the mounting hole/point for the rear axle longer and stronger, away from the clutch cover with more material on the top side where the casing is weak. But this does require a longer primary shaft with keyway for the woodruff key, so would be expensive to make.

[C*NTSPEED]

Didn't Oz (OAP) strengthen that weak point on his PTS1E?

Oz welded an extra bolt lug on the clutch cover, but I've also seen pictures of another casing where a strenghtening plate was welded inside the casing next to the gearbox with a hole for the rear axle that was welded to several points on the inside of the casing, kind of like a spidersweb on the inside to keep everything together.
I've also thought about having a primary axle made with a longer clutch side end that sticks out of the casing an extra inch, and slide a block of aluminium with the correct hole through it over the end and weld that to the casing, thus making the mounting hole/point for the rear axle longer and stronger, away from the clutch cover with more material on the top side where the casing is weak. But this does require a longer primary shaft with keyway for the woodruff key, so would be expensive to make.

ok you say expensive but if it works it saves you having to buy new casings and sundries dont it if your clever enough i say have a go mate

[Adspeed]

Dan, I reckon if I'd posted up that barrel with my name on it everyone would be saying "small ports mate".

I think you are very wrong there Tony, i reckon that people would say....wow, nice piece of engineering Tony.....tell us more about the ports and the work you've done. So maybe you're being a bit harsh?

I'm not suggesting MB are the world priemier Vespa tuners.....in fact i dare say MB would shudder at the thought of anyone saying as such, i was just posting up the scoot as a whole initially, becuase i like the scoot and all its little trick bits, but then also highlighting the amount of work that has gone into this. The reason is because (in my opinion) whether someone (anyone - not just MB) does the worlds fastest tune or just a basic touring tune, when they put a lot of work into something its worth looking at to see what they've done. Isnt it?

Sorry if my suggestion of 'drooling' seems to have got your back up......its just my way of expressing my interest in the kit.......and i'm not here to defend their work, or argue the case as to why they did what......i just thought it was something that we dont often see, and that lots of Vespa (and maybe even Lambretta) owners would like to have a look at. Maybe i was a bit over-enthusiastic in my celebrations of the kit......i do get a bit excited when i see something different.......but i just liked it....Vespa's are always the underdog and the neglected scooter brand, so i was pleased to have something actually worth looking at, that would grab peoples attention. I know you are at the top of your game in terms of Vespa tuning, so i certainly wouldnt attempt to get into a vespa-tuning debate with you.....i just think its a cool scoot.

As for the kit itself......the basis of the kit is of course a Malossi 210, and it uses an off-set transfer, Suzuki GT750 piston at 70mm, hence an iron liner........as the the piston is bigger than what a Malossi cylinder can take if just bored out. I guess that for reliability the iron liner was made to a thickness to be reliable, and as the original alloy spigot can be so weak, especially with distortion from welding the best thing to do was to Iron liner it. The heat disspipation benefit that an ally/nicasil liner brings is obvious, but switching to an iron liner for other reasons may outweigh the original benefits....and surely is not so much of a problem when the new cylinder wil be watercooled anyway?

So as the outer diameter of the liner is increased, the casing have been bored out, again weak casings dictate how big a Malossi cylinder could be bored without welding the crap Swiss cheese casings. I'm sure MB could have quiet easily have made massive ports and over-tuned it........hell......if they've gone to all the trouble of doing this conversion, its the easiest thing in the world to start carving a cylinder up with wide ports isnt it. But.....as we and many others have found Vespa casing fall apart, so i'd guess that is why its a good idea not to over-tune P range Vespas......these casings have cracks like a spiders web now......whats the point in another 5bhp.....these casings just couldnt handle it??

Anyway..........i'm just chewing the fat with you and speculating, and as i say........its not our work to defend....i just happened to find the conversion very interesting and find it more intruiging to try and figure out why someone did something a particular way, rather than just writing it off as wrong etc. The owner seems to be very happy with the scoot (right up until the point it went pop ) and if you are genuinely interetsed in further info, i would be happy to both dyno it, and then GPS it (customer permission pending) and get some graphs, figures and maybe even a port map up on the forum if i get chance...........

PMSL again!! You must have some time on your hands Dan.

Its not exactling w^%kin material in my eyes but wish I could ally weld like MB. Actually just wish I could ally weld full stop.

Its not long ago I saw a water cooled TS he'd done for a customer. Looked really nice, but was a basic TS at heart, barrel stood the chap at over 2k. Each to their own but seems freakin baanananannanananans to me to get all that done just for pub talk.

Doesn't it all get very serious

[drunkmunkey6969]

PMSL again!! You must have some time on your hands Dan.

Its not exactling w^%kin material in my eyes but wish I could ally weld like MB. Actually just wish I could ally weld full stop.

Its not long ago I saw a water cooled TS he'd done for a customer. Looked really nice, but was a basic TS at heart, barrel stood the chap at over 2k. Each to their own but seems freakin baanananannanananans to me to get all that done just for pub talk.

Doesn't it all get very serious

I know......i start typing this stuff, as it pours through my mind....a few minutes later and i've written war and f@@king peace....i reckon that if i spent less time writing all this nonsense i might stand a chance of actually finishing one of my projects!!

You're right.....its not the most 'balls out' porting job....but i dont think it was ever meant to be......its just a good LC conversion in my opinion.

As for getting serious, i think its part of my current SOCD (Scooter Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) see here: http://scooterotica.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3337 Every now and then i have to take a step back, deep breath and think.....Dan, its just a bloody scooter, get a life.....

[Adspeed]

As for getting serious, i think its part of my current SOCD (Scooter Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) see here: http://scooterotica.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3337 Every now and then i have to take a step back, deep breath and think.....Dan, its just a bloody scooter, get a life.....

Yep and before ya know it your misses is getting tupped by ya neighbour while your spending another night in the garage. I've heard some cracking stories over the years as a result of SOCD.

At the end of the day there just f$%kin bits of old italian/indian scrap shopping bikes. A little something to get a bit of time out.

Anyway back to the LC Vespa!!

[Juan]

Any volunteers to Tupp my Missus so I can actually get some reasonable garage time?

[Adspeed]

Any volunteers to Tupp my Missus so I can actually get some reasonable garage time?

Lol!! :biggrin: My mate would f%$k a frog if it 'd stop hoppin, I can send him up!! might get ya 10 mins !!!!!!!!

[drunkmunkey6969]

might get ya 10 mins

He'll do her twice?