Not quite what was expected!!!!

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tony
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22 is pretty good but seems high to me.. good stuff if thats what you are achieving. Jb had a very reworked rotary 210... massive timings etc but still only 18hp... so its that old variation thing I reckon.

As an example on a dynojet a standard ts1 with matched transfers I have seen 16 to 17 hp. I dont know what you would get on yours sean or yours al.. but we know they all vary and we tend to judge by our own machines I guess. What I'm saying is the dyno in germany probably will read different to the uk ones (and not just cos of the Ps conversion).
Pepparts in the Uk race scene we dont tend to use Mikuni carbs due to the limited adjustability of the midrange running. As soon as the motor is under real load the settings go way out the window as you would expect as these carbs were designed specificaly for a purpose and not our old air cooled machines. They sound crisp on the dyno but tend to be too lean in the middle in the real world.
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Craig H
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My old 210 tuned by Andy Horne made 28bhp on Taffspeeds dyno.PM pipe,cosa clutch,standard carb,T5 fourth gear.
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lockman69
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My 210, standard carb,PM pipe reworked cases and piston with cut crank makes 17.5 Bhp on JB’s Dyno and my TS1 makes 24Bhp on the same Dyno.

My JB Tuning T5 Suzuki conversion with massively modified cases MBD VForce reed valve, 30mm delly and JL RH made 19Bhp

So in my opinion on the same Dyno the Pep engine will fall short of 25Bhp
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drunkmunkey6969
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Just for additional info, on our dyno we would expect to see approx the following figures (these are off memory and are averages)
8-10bhp for a standard GP200, 12bhp for a stage 4 with 30mm delly and expansion chamber, 18-19bhp for a basic 'bolt on' TS1 kit with 30mm carb and expansion chamber.......these are 'as the customer brings them'

The TS1s we have tuned for 'fast road' with JL pipes, big carbs and various trick bits would be approx 25bhp (no welding required). My race TS1 shows 30bhp on the dyno. A touring tune i did for a chap on his previousley 'revvy' TS1 ended up with something like 22bhp and 20ft-lbs at 6000rpm. The stage 4 we did for Lam46 with a sterling pipe and a 30mm Delly was approx 18bhp.

For Vespas ('as the customer brings them') we might see 9bhp for a standard T5 125 or P200, most Mallossi 166 & 172 kits we see are around 12-13 bhp. The ones we have tuned can be around 16-18bhp, and the Mallossi 210 kits AVERAGE around 17-19 on our dyno but we have had up to 22bhp as Sean says.......depending on what work the engine has had done.

Dont know how these COMPARE to other dynos in the country, but at the end of the day, quoting and comparing diferent dyno numbers can be a bit of a farce, we mainly concern ourselves with what we know happens on our dyno, and compare before/after results to see progress.

We have had scooters on our dyno that have been on Diablos in Nuneaton and on Charlies dyno at Performance Tuning and our graphs have read within 1bhp of thiers. But again, on different days, diferent dynos, differnt operators and so on..........there can be differences, hence my earlier statement: we mainly concern ourselves with what we know happens on our dyno, and compare before/after results to see progress.

As for 25ps from this engine.....who knows? Thats 24.6bhp, so on a cold day, lean jetting, high tyre pressure, and THE RIGHT PIPE, maybe it will? But with no matching of the cylinder to the casing tranfers i'd say it will miss out on at least mid-range, even if not peak power, and 210's lack mid range in comparison to other kits......166 & 172 kits generally have better midrange than 210 kits, so thats an indicator. Plus.....as this engine doesnt specify WHICH pipe gives 25PS, then with off the shelf pipes the end results could vary wildly depending what is fitted!!
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OzOAP
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pepparts wrote: Just some crazy thoughts of me. I could come to you with some exhausts for the motor maybe with a motor (35 HP) too and have some tries on the dyno. To get to know each other and sharing experience. I don´t want to be known as a thiefbayer or someone who makes weird things on motors.
What a top man. Willing to come over, backing up his work and his word.
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joeythescooterboy
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Stirling Hopkirk wrote:What a top man. Willing to come over, backing up his work and his word.
I 100% agree and it was me that started all this??
To be fair to the lad he's took it all in the right way and has made this offer to me in a PM so as and when I can get the motor near a dyno I'll give him a shout.
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MattsDad
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Sorry Ben because you seem a nice lad, but its all got a bit diplomatic and I'll show my arse if it does 25ps delivered as is :)

I wanted to ask though why you have chosen MM1 rather than 2 which flows more optimum, RD which has been superseded by Vforce 3, Cosa banded or not which would not last @ 25 when MMW, DRT (as well as gears), Reedspeed and other have twice the meat?

Also what does machined piston mean, have you milled this to change the durations rather than the barrel which I regard as experimental rather than permanent?

Valid questions I think as for this kind of money that is what I would be expecting?
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OzOAP
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MattsDad wrote:Sorry Ben because you seem a nice lad, but its all got a bit diplomatic and I'll show my arse if it does 25ps delivered as is :)

I wanted to ask though why you have chosen MM1 rather than 2 which flows more optimum, RD which has been superseded by Vforce 3, Cosa banded or not which would not last @ 25 when MMW, DRT (as well as gears), Reedspeed and other have twice the meat?

Also what does machined piston mean, have you milled this to change the durations rather than the barrel which I regard as experimental rather than permanent?

Valid questions I think as for this kind of money that is what I would be expecting?
Im the last one to be diplomatic.
He says its got 25 hp, and is willing to back it up. Regardless of what we think of the spec.
£2k aint a lot of money, add £500(ish) for carb/pipe. I have built 25hp Vespas and it has taken a lot more than that. :shock:
I've wrecked Cosa clutches in engines with a lot less power, so it will be interesting to see how it all copes.
If he does come over, would love to have a chat over a pint, and see why I've been wasting my time with a die-grinder and ally welder all these years.
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Sean has my camo vespa in his work shop it's a mallossi 220 watercooled ,fantic 300 conrod, reed valve everything matched ,light flywheel ,ect ect ect which has been tuned for fast road use which produced 26 bhp with a taffy goldline & 23 with an old mricron when dynod about 6 years ago.
Engine probably cost me about the same if not more so i'll be very surprised if this spec reaches anywhere near 25 bhp and if it does it'll the next vespa engine i'd buy ......

Hopefully it'll do what the boy says !!!!
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C*NTSPEED
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25bhp and 28 bhp figures are these the 210's or what???????
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