Not quite what was expected!!!!

[shamrockexpress]

I cant beleive we have been carving alloy for years for nothing,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,PEP you should have joined this forum years ago


NEWS FLASH DREMELL HAVE JUST WENT INTO LIQUIDATION!!!!!!!

[joeythescooterboy]

Before I go any further I would just like to state that I am not slating PEP Scooter Parts, I am not saying that anyone has been ripped off, I am not saying that either inferior or inadequate parts have been used, I am saying that the motor in it's present form is not what was expected hence the title of the post.

On the other hand I have never seen a reed fitted where either the crank or the casings have not been heavily modified to allow for 360 inlet. My understanding is that the reeds open under negative pressure and close under positive pressure, and that at high revs they sometimes don't fully close at all, and that is how the're designed to work, so forgive me if I sound a bit of a numbnuts but why go to the trouble of fitting one if you're then going to stop them doing their job for 90 degrees duration?
I have also never seen a tuned motor where the casings have not been matched to the barrel. I appreciate that the piston, modified or not, acts as transfer area on the 210, but if matching the casings makes no difference then why would Malossi put barrel transfers there, surely they have carried out their own tests in the 20+ years they've been making the kit? It would aslo beg the question as to why, if there's no need, have so many respected dealers and tuners advised and then charged for this to be done?

By the way I'm not trying to be argumentative, nor do I profess to know all there is about tuning, (although the bits I do know are from hands on and are not all theoretical,) which is why I come on here.......... to learn, or to pass on what little snippets I do know.

[bazman]

I've built a few malossi 210's over the years , initially i just banged the top end on my workhorse at the time to provide a few more hp , the difference was negligible UNTIL i opened out the ports in the casings and altered the crank , what a massive change , and as such built all 210's this way . So i'm of the opinion it is a necessity to match these kits to the casings , also did a p range 180 engine which was originally built by Norrie Kerr in the 80's, guess what......

[lozmondo]

Could it have been the crank alteration that made the biggest difference ?

I ran a Malossi 210 years ago unmatched, that was after a conversation with Ralph Saxelby on the phone..which was nice ...maybe he just didn't want to do my engine

[bazman]

Actually when i think back it was standard crank, only put an altered one( 10mm removed from induction web) in after it had reached 20k miles.

[sean brady scooters]

hmmm,interesting topic this,and from a couple of fronts.
firstly,matching the barrell /kit to crankcases...well seeing as all kit makers such as malossi/polini and pinasco etc all advise this mod to get the best from the kit after presumably testing these things out I would have thought it was best to do so...and follow their recomendations...
and I too would advise this,if nothing more than its just good practice to match every thing up and blue print things prior to any tuning even...just to improve general flow and area.
I also think its important that this is done just cos thats what potential buyers want to see...in that a kit has been fitted according to the makers advice and recomendations...and that everything has been done to std casings to maximise the potential of that kit.
As to what difference it really makes ?....well must admit i,m not sure as we have never done a back to back test on this ourselves but I would assume the difference if any would be seen more in the torque curve if disernable at all. in other words the spread of usable power as opposed to the peak.
secondly ,the reed intake system and the crank web blocking off possibly 90 degrees out of 360 ...
again it does not sound good...and can only be seen ultimatly as a restriction...as most if not all other reed valve motors provide the full 360....
and again ,i,m just not sure what difference this would make .cos ive never even considered it that way .but given the choice i would never build a reed motor that way ...
and from what i have seen of other reed valve motors built by norrie,mb etc niether have they...but could be wrong ...
anyways...get it dyno,d first as is...and then examine the results...

[Diablo]

Interesting this because if you have a look at the thread I posted a while back most reed 210s don't work very well anyway. My feeling is that you have to carve so much out of the case and from the crank that it cancels out gains made from the reedvalve. Conversley the same mod on a T5 gives about 4hp.
Long stroking the motor will have a massive difference and a recessed head and no base packer will make the motor very torqey.
Reed cranks and inlets that I have seen from MSC possibly by Malc Anderson use quite a small inlet and a chamfered crank web. These worked easily as well as cranks with loads cut off and huge inlets.
As Tony has rightly pointed out P2s are difficult to tune regards transfer inlets. Perhaps the difference is negligible with malossis and therefore not worth the extra work. It certainly isn't on the Polini but that doesn't have the malossi piston with all its lovelyness. Certainly when your matching the case to the transfers on a P2 you cant help but feel this is all arse about face compared to anything else that makes decent power.

Very interested to see what this motor is like(bring it down for a dyno ). I think the HP figure is a little optimistic but hey all dynos read a little different(especially German ones). Torque is where its at though which is what really counts and what you will ultimately feel on the road.

[tony]

I think you should dyno it.. It wont make 25hp on a uk dyno. In fact I havent seen a malossi 210 make that much power on any dyno (given the variations too). But you need to see what you have to begin with. Ben from Pep does have a point re the timings and reed draw but that all depends on the pipe you are using( i dont think there is a 'mega' pipe out there yet for the malossi 210 -ads you reading this?!).. you dont need 360 degrees of inlet timing. Its poor the transfers arent matched. You will restrict flow.. and what about volume? Thats not good really. Its minor work to match the casings. Get it dynoed mate.. ask Ben at Pep for a graph of what to expect and compare.. show him and see what the response is.

[joeythescooterboy]

My apologies for opening what seems to be a can of worms, but at least we have a decent debate on the Vespa side of things
I had a look tonight at the inlet and it has actualy been matched to the block so again my apologies, (I only had a quick glance the first time round, although I perhaps should have checked properly before opening me gob!)

As I've already pointed out I'm not slagging anyone off but the motor just isn't what was expected, I'm sure that if you were to tell most people that you had just got your engine back from (insert tuners name,) the assumption would be that the casings would be matched to the barrel transfers.

Al/Sean it's not my motor but I'll see if the lad wants to have it dyno'd before anything else is done, even if it's only for interests sake.

And just as an aside........ Ben, and this is just MY opinion, if you're going to be charging a hefty wedge of anyone's cash for your motors it might be an idea to provide a bit more detail as to what has actually been done to the motor, perhaps provide a few dyno printouts using different set ups, jetting, pipes etc so as not to be such a "suck it and see" affair.

[Diablo]

Hey Tony your forgetting about your friend and mine Nic Paloucci. His 220 makes 25hp on our dyno and over 20ft/lb of torque. I believe the secret to his is a reed inlet right above the vee'd crank webs and a nice big fat pipe curling inder the left hand panel. Its a monster to ride and not in the least peakey.