Question for the engine tuners.

[J1MS]

I know there are Dynos in use in the two stroke tuning world that can log data for any given crank angle with corresponding cylinder or and primary crankcase pressures, this type of data is used when working out how an engine is pumping using one 360 degree revolution of the engine at any set engine speed.
Is this a future development in the lambretta tuning world, or is it already happening?

[Knowledge]

Blimey, a big question , eh J1MS?

OK, I see the modern history of development of tuning as three phases

Phase one.

This the careful development approach. This equates to filing a bit off here, and testing the bike by riding it (or racing it) and recording it all. Then modify the exhaust and test it by riding it, and then recording it all. Then change the carb, and testing it by riding it, and record it all. Then file a bit more off and ... well you get the idea.

This is quite a slow way of developing an engine, but the methodical approach was the only way for many years, and if you went too far, you could always look back at your notes and go back to where you were.

The great progressive development tuners were Raplh Saxelby, the Frankland brothers and Dave Webster (and many others).

Phase Two

This is relatively recent and involves the use of dynos. Many dealers have dynos but I am not convinced that they all know how to use them. A dyno is a tool that allows you to show the behaviour of the engine in a visual format (graph). The great advantage is that you can make a direct comparison between two set-ups without resorting to "I think it feels a bit better than last time".

You must use the same dyno for all your development. People who make a dyno work for them are the likes of John Balcomb and many of the phase one tuners have moved up to use dynos to prove their worth and add to their knowledge.

Phase Three (and this should answer your question J1MS)

The computer age. There are a number of two stroke tuning programs available that can take the guess-work out of the porting. They are not the complete answer, but they do have advantages. For example, using phase one development, you might raise the transfers, only to discover that it doesn't work. In cyber tuning, you can raise the transfers and see the results, without the expense of either the porting, or putting it right again (which can be very expensive) if it doesn’t work.
Phase three development still requires a dyno in order to test the tuning work, but it does help because you can immediately correlate the dyno results against the theoretical power output as shown by the computer program. Nice.

I suspect that I have made phase three development sound too easy. As with all computers, if you put rubbish in, you get rubbish out. The really, really important thing to about this computer based tuning is to measure EVERYTHING, input the data carefully and reproduce the computer’s output perfectly in the metal of the engine.

I believe that this is the way that Charlie Edmonds works. His race results indicate that he probably does the measuring, calculations and interpretation of the computer ‘s results better than anyone else. Frankly, much of his innovation is driven by what his computer is suggesting.

Me, I’m barely at phase one

[J1MS]

Cheers for the reply Knowledge.

Im always interested in where the advances in tuning are being made, computer generated data is a big advance on its own, with massive number crunching done in seconds, but there are advances in Dyno Technology linked to transducers and I wondered if this was being applied to Lambrettas to work out negative or positive pulses at set degrees in Primary chambers and combustion chambers as is done with two stroke high performance bike engines using high frequency boards.
It seems there are normal speed boards used for dyno testing, then there are high speed boards rated at over 100,000 Hz, and even higher frequency boards of 500,000 Hz these being used for mapping combustion pressures at degrees of crank rotation, I was wondering if anyone was moving into this realm with the exhaust and porting developments in scooter tuning.
This type of data would give real world pressure differences (not simulated), between primary and combustion chamber at any given degree of crank rotation knowing this type of data allows subtle changes in port timings or expansion dimensions to extract as much power as possible from an engine.
If its not being done yet then I don't think it will be long before it is...

[tony]

from martin
"I believe that this is the way that Charlie Edmonds works. His race results indicate that he probably does the measuring, calculations and interpretation of the computer ‘s results better than anyone else. Frankly, much of his innovation is driven by what his computer is suggesting."

That statement is the most stupid mis-informed thing you have ever said Martin. It also shows you have a lot to learn my friend. "Charlie's tuning is driven by what his computer tells him? " Are you mad? So what has he been doing for the last 12 years previous to the arrival of a computer in his workshop? You dont get that kind knowledge by buying computer programs.. you get it by testing and innovation. You know so so little of where he is at, what he is doing. And posting rubbish like that simply confirms this.

[drunkmunkey6969]

Bit harsh?

[J1MS]

I cant say in all honesty who gains what from where in the tuning world as there seem to be a few guarded secrets.

But what I was asking (and its also probably a little dependant on which type of dyno is being used) Was:

Is anyone onto single cycle data logging, this being used to ascertain cylinder primary and combustion pressures in the development of their tuned motors as it seems this is starting to happen in the two stroke motorcycle tuning world.

[Stokie]

That statement is the most stupid mis-informed thing you have ever said Martin. It also shows you have a lot to learn my friend. "Charlie's tuning is driven by what his computer tells him? " Are you mad? So what has he been doing for the last 12 years previous to the arrival of a computer in his workshop? You dont get that kind knowledge by buying computer programs.. you get it by testing and innovation. You know so so little of where he is at, what he is doing. And posting rubbish like that simply confirms this.

I think there are a lot of people that will applaud let alone agree with your reply here Tony

[tony]

I was gonna refrain from posting on here until the 'donation gate' thing had settled and imo a better solution found. But silly comments like "frankly,much of his innovation is driven by what his computer is suggesting" I find insulting in the least.
I know Martin well, I like him even if he is a bit mad at times. But what possessed him to say that when he doesnt even know the bloke? That comes over as if Martin himself knows the fella well, goes down the workshop..see's how he is working and makes a judgement. I think Martin may of seen charlie once at a race meet.
Seeing as I do know him well I can tell you he would take offence to that comment of Martin's. Computers simply speed things up... the formulas he works to, the ideas, manual calculation drawing of exhausts..he's done all that and done all that manually.
Martin. You need to go and have a chat with Charlie at say Mallory Practise next year(not at a race meet). Allow yourself an hour or so and be prepared to realise that maybe this fella isnt quite what you and quite a few others think.

J1ms... cylinder/case pressures... thats basic stuff for this guy.The rising and falling of case pressures is basically the heart of the two stroke motor. Get to the heart to get the thing to work. Imo lots tuners in the scooter world have been 'winging' it for years. I certainly did with my race stuff .. it was all trial and error without really knowing what was happening to the case pressures,temps etc. Why dont some of the guys on here ask their favourite tuners what case pressure their motor is designed for..what temps and flow rates they expect, gas temps with their tunes. Lets hear the answer... Better still, how many can explain any of it?

[J1MS]

J1ms... cylinder/case pressures... thats basic stuff for this guy. Imo most tuners in the scooter world have been 'winging' it for years. I certainly did with my race stuff and with my race background and close knowledge of several other tuners I can justify this statement because quite simply I've worked with them professionaly.

Thanks for the reply tony, So these types of high speed boards and transponders are being used on the Lambretta tuning scene then.
The collected data would be very informative being used to log all degrees of a crankshafts rotation, of one single two stroke cycle, and recording the corresponding combustion pressures and primary compression at each and any point in one full 360 degree rotation of the crankshaft.
Its all very cleaver stuff, scooters always seemed to be at least ten or more years behind the more modern two strokes, it would be good if they could close the gap a little. All thats needed now is a more rigid, better handling frame to bolt all the new technology into.

[tony]

ha.. do you not think the chassis's are carefully set up mate!?
Lets put this in perspective. Not many people know this on here.
Plumb pudding Mallory last year on the 08 (older motor). Charley is 30th on grid against Bemsee and New Era Yamaha R6s, Gsx-r's 600s, 1000cc things too. Full on race machines. 8 laps.. He finishes 11th.
Now is that not good enough out of a 40yr old piston port 204cc lambretta.
Believe me those grp4 bikes are set up.