Some fairly dumb timing and engine setup questions.

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tippo88
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Am rebuilding my LI 125 engine with GP 58 mm stroke crank, Yamaha 110 rod and cleaned up SR 185 barrel and piston , 3mm packing plate at base of piston. Have done a port map and have fitted the cylinder with no sealant to check timings.
Am using the port timing calculator at lambretta-images.com
Have a few questions
When I look through the exhaust port at BDC the edge of the piston is above the bottom of the port to the level of the top piston ring . ( see picture - note only bottom ring is fitted as lost top ring and waiting on replacement) . From what I can gather this means piston is too high and needs a thicker packing plate?
At TDC the edge of the piston is about 0.6 mm below the cylinder top and the center of the piston is , best I can measure it , 6.5 mm above the top of cylinder. ( Is there a good way to measure this accurately?)
I'm assuming that my 6.5 mm is the "Piston Crown to Top of barrel at TDC" used in the port timing calculator?
If that's the case I get the following results:
Exhaust duration 188.81
Transfer duration 148.37
Blowdown 20.22

For the Inlet duration I need to input " Piston height inlet side " what exactly is this measurement?

Sorry lots of question , thanks in advance.

Image
Image

Regards
Tippo




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wack 63
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Don't worry about the crown height, measure from the edge of the piston to cylinder face (0.6mm you said). For inlet duration measure from crown edge to bottom of piston on the ring peg side. If your transfers are level with the piston crown at BDC and the ex port is lower then it has been machined wrong. Personally those alloy cylinders are crap.
hendy
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You should use 0.6mm, not 6.5mm for the piston crown to top of barrel measurement.

If you use a thicker packer plate (say 5mm) you'll have an excessively large squish clearance, something like 3mm at a guess and your transfer timing will be very high.

I went through this problem last year and ended up returning my SR185 kit. Maybe you've bought it!

Take a look at the thread. I knew nowt at the start of the thread so some of the early stuff is a bit silly, but the advice I received was sound and it get clearer toward the end.

Good luck.

http://scooterotica.org/forum/viewtopic ... rt+timings
tarmac tickler
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the piston will destroy itself if u run it like that, guarantee that, i have done it, trust me, scrap the barrel, its pot luck if you get a decent one o those alloy sr copies, you better off getting your iron cylinder bored out to 175cc n do a bit of diy porting
tippo88
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Thanks all. Am starting a good but probably expensive learning process!
Just to confirm at TDC edge of piston is 0.6 below the top of cylinder then enter 0.6 in the timing calculator rather than -0.6 ?
That being the case I get
Exhaust 165.29
Transfer 120.03
Blowdown 22.63
Will pull the cylinder and measure the piston tonight.

However I guess the main issue is the exhaust port height.
Picture of my port map below. If my port map is accurate then the bottom of the transfers is not exactly the same and the bottom of the exhaust port is 1.99 mm below one of them and 5.09mm below the other.
Is there any way to recover this? I have access to a good machine shop .

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tippo88
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Looking at this more closely In daylight at BDC the piston is very slightly below both transfers by a finger nail thickness but is above the exhaust port by the depth of the first piston ring.
Measuring directly on the cylinder bottom of exhaust port is 61.7 mm and bottom of transfers are 57.3 and 57.6 mm.
Couple of questions:
Would it be feasible to deepen the transfers by say 4 mm, use a thicker base spacer and skim the cylinder top to get a good functional setup?
If not then if I can get a replacement cylinder from the dealer then I assume main thing to check is bottom of exhaust port is in line with bottom of transfers?
Thanks in advance
Tippo


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rosscla
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The only ways you'll get that piston in the right place is to lengthen the stroke by enough to drop it down at BDC (unlikely) or to pack the barrel up, then you'll need to make adjustments elsewhere to get the squish setting right by skimming the top of the cylinder.

Edit:

Just reread the original post you might also get rid of the 110 rod and keep the packer, but you'll still need to skim the top as the deck height below the top face with the long rod and the squish will be unacceptable. The exhaust port is just to deep.
"Our dilemma is that we hate change and love it at the same time; what we really want is for things to remain the same but get better."
tippo88
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Thanks Rosscai, don't really want to mess with the crank.
Am thinking best route is to get another cylinder and double check that the bottom of exhaust is in line with the bottom of transfers ?

Cheers

Tippo


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hendy
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tippo88 wrote:Thanks Rosscai, don't really want to mess with the crank.
Am thinking best route is to get another cylinder and double check that the bottom of exhaust is in line with the bottom of transfers ?

Cheers

Tippo


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Absolutely 100% correct

Every other solution requires a bad compromise somewhere else. Believe me I spent weeks trying to overcome the same thing.

If you're not after lightning performance casa 185 kits look good value.
Adam_Winstone
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Lots of Jap piston conversions of old used to push bottom of transfers above the piston crown at tdc. Decent tuners, with suitable tools, used to then lower the bottom edge to match, however, plenty of conversions were left with the bottom of transfers above piston crown and they ran perfectly well. The main thing that you don't want to do is to leave the bottom of the exhaust port above the piston crown at bdc as this tends to super-heat from the passing exhaust gases. I know of at least one UK tuner that regularly takes his exhaust a number of mm lower than piston crown and his tunes have been respected and run reliably for years. What you really need to do is determine where you can best place your transfer tops (120 to 125 is good for most use, you can go 126-130 for higher rpm use but this will knock lower rpm power) and then raise the exhaust port duration to suit the rpm range that you're looking for. Inlet timing is not so critical but you want to ensure that ring pegs are not exposed by the top of inlet port (remove manifold and look in at bdc).

What you're facing is the same as everyone else suffers when using the crappy iron lined alloy cylinders... yet plenty of them run OK. NB: The liners are frequently soft and wear out quickly with the chrome edged piston rings. As such, don't widen the exhaust port or this will simply speed up the wear rate.

These barrels are IMO really badly made, poorly finished and look crap, however, I've known a tuned 175 of them to do many thousands of reliable and reasonably quick miles... so it might still be a good option for you at this time.

Then seeing where your ports need to be for suitable port timing, don't forget that you need to end up with a method of achieving a suitable squish clearance. I would aim for 1.5mm (certainly no less than 1mm and no more than 2mm) then see if you can do this with a combination of base packers, head gaskets and/or machining of the head. Compression really wants to be about 8:1 geometric for general use and 9:1 if you intend to raise the exhaust a little (note that these figures are combined combustion chamber + squish band volume, not combustion chamber alone!).

Good luck.

Adam

Edit: Please note that the above is based on my own tuning work and results, which I note is fairly limited when compared to some of those that post on here, who make their living out of tuning, have dyno, etc. My suggestion will get you on the road and give you a very usable performance return for little effort/cost... don't expect bragging rights with dyno BHP figures though ;)
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