The Super Monza exposed.

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rocho68
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tony wrote:I have explained all that above , well I did my best too.
A mappable ignition does not give you plus ten hp on a thirty hp motor.
You only spread the power band with more advance low down and more retard high up.
I really don't know why these motors are being compared really. One is 225cc commercially avail me and the other is a custom welded up 253 stroked motor.
However seeing as they are in the same 'road ' class under straightliners. I suppose it was inevitable.
In fact Darrell himself compared them via dyno graphs sime time ago. His came out on top in his opinion.
But in the real world trned out not quiteso.
Hi tony , i think you have mistaken what i asked ? I was refearing to the lost 500rpm due to egt temp not the ignition , that is just one of the theorys of the people who seem to know ie the supermonza owners , i think its great to know that any supermonza owner can take an over the counter kit and go and do 100 + ! , anybody got an old supermonza barrel they want to get rid of then i want it !
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tony
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I see. Sorry mate.
500 rpm certainly won't gain you 10hp on a super monza. You will gain though. Higher egt = more rpm. And as I said none of us achieved our correct egt figures that show on the track or road. The ignition won't give you plus 10. The ignition will give you a wider spread of power and maybe a little peak extra.
It's really to do with setup and realising what's going on in the real world. The inertia dyno isn't a real world figure as it's not loading the engine as the real world does. This is why you may of heard of so many horror stories of engines failing after inertia dyno setup. The operator needs to understand real world and adjust accordingly if he has this type of dyno.
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fairspares
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looking at the top speed results something is not right, either there has been a malfunction with the timing/speed equipment or there was suddenly a massive surge of wind or some major changes were made to the engine and gearing. James ran fairly consistent with between high 90s and 101 mph which with 30+ bhp and a slight tail wind is achiveable , the 105.6mph is out of sink with the rest of his results however Eric did do a few runs at 104+ mph.

211 James Winter Lambretta 225cc best 105.6

105.6 100.7 101.0 100.3 100.5 101.0
100.3 98.7
96.5 97.9 96.9 94.1 96.4 90.2
93.9 94.1 94.6 94.9 94.9 95.9

209 Eric Cope Lambretta 250cc best 104.9

104.8 104.9 104.8 90.4 98.3 104.8 101.1 104.1 104.1
96.3 36.4 96.3 88.3 38.4 86.0 90.3
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Dono
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So in layman's terms tony, what you're saying is a 30bhp & 20 torque is all you need to get a full bodied lammy to achieve 106 mph yes/ no ? And lets say I have the same gears jetting ect will I hit the ton on 30bhp.
The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realise it doesn't say anything it's to late to stop reading it.....
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tony
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Ok. You still don't get the inertia dyno thing v step dyno thing.
No one seems to understand what's happening regarding heat. You are all so blinded by these inertia dynos.
Let me try again. A standing start mile takes how long on a tuned lambretta? A minute ? Maybe 50 seconds. Ok
The bike is under full load , wind resistance too. Lots of heat in the pipe and motor.
Now.., inertia dyno to plot a graph . Third gear run. Maybe 10 seconds , no wind resistance, just a roller to turn. A roller that's too light on the mjp dyno as shown by the fact that not one of the Pt bikes made the correct egt values.
So.. It's not a real interpretation of real power. And therefore you can jet lower as I showed by not switching on my powerjet.. That's some -25% off my main jet and it STILL wouldnt achieve its correct egt values. Can you not see what's happening ? So. I could jet even lower on an inertia dyno to raise my egt and show great power and I would be a hero. Pub talk would be rife.
Put that bike in the track and it would seize. I say again -- seize .

I would say Jimmy's made 27/28 on step test on Charlie's dyno and it's this motor that did 105 over the mile on tall gearing.

After all my ce tuned 153cc Vespa did 106.6 in HALF MILE with a similar power output
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Dono
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what I was asking in laymans terms about an off the shelf monza 30bhp and 20 torque kit. is this all you need to get to 106 mph on a shoot out. Yes / no ... ? Oh and exhaust, tall gears and 34 carb. But as you stated still only reads 30 on a dyno? So adding all the other kit that will cost me over a grand ie mapped ignition and the varitronic adds no power gains so pointless adding this to my shopping list. Will just the monza kit get me to 106 mph yes or no ?
The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realise it doesn't say anything it's to late to stop reading it.....
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tony
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I can't say it will do 106. But it did do 105.6 on the same gearing jimmy run.
Buy the kit from either ce or cam lam as this comes supplied to the correct original design spec. Jimmy used the larger carb option. The ignition will NOT cost you a grand. Again talk to cam lam or Charlie.
There is a super monza page on FB also.
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tony
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Fairspares.
Jimmy did two high speed runs as described if you read through my posts.
Below is a post from Trevor Duckworth on the original thread where the results were discredited.

This is the thread

http://scooterotica.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=28916

This is Trevor's response

Straightliners would like to put to bed any doubts about the speeds set on Tuesday the 12th November at Elvington by the three scooters that attended

Firstly let me say that the speeds recorded where over a flying mile and we ran from west to east as we do for all events of this type at Elvington we use the surveyed distance marks that are used for World and British records on this site, The timing equipment used is certified accurate to 10000 of a second for top speed runs we use an 80 foot speed trap at the end of the measured distance this is set up inside the mile with the finish beam on the exact mile mark

As the day in question was an extra day put on at very short notice we did not have our normal printed tickets available to us so we had to revert to hand written ones the system we used was for all speeds to be put on a master sheet and then put on to the timing cards I have the master sheets if you want to look at them

I can guarantee that the speeds some of you are questioning are correct and the rider in question did indeed back up is 105mph run with a 104mph run I know he did it because I went and looked at the timing clock ,,as some of you will know I have an interest in all things two stroke I have ridden them all my racing life and over the two days we where at Elvington I took particular interest in the progress of our scooter riders,, the wind direction on the day varied from a south westerly to a full westerly direction changing back and forth over the day the max wind speed I recoded was 9mph and the average was around 5mph to 6mph in a westerly direction

And finally if you still doubt the speeds I will set up a test day at Elvington at my own cost and you can come and show the world you did do over 100mph on a road scooter, and if you have video of your runs I will submit the timing data to Guinness for ratification Best Regards Trevor Duckworth (Straightliners)
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nelson pk
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Dono wrote:41 what ¿ I was asking in laymans terms about an off the shelf monza 30bhp and 20 torque kit. is this all you need to get to 106 mph on a shoot out. Yes / no ... ? Oh and exhaust, tall gears and 34 carb. But as you stated still only reads 30 on a dyno? So adding all the other kit that will cost me over a grand ie mapped ignition and the varitronic adds no power gains so pointless adding this to my shopping list. Will just the monza kit get me to 106 mph yes or no ?

You have to have a strengthened varitronic on a super monza in the first place. Its part of the tested components that go with the whole engine design. You want to risk not having this when this is part of the design thats your choice i guess but when the flywheel rips apart dont blame anyone else. Also the SM was designed to run with varitronic, that is very clear in all SM info on Cam Lams site :?
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Dono
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Varitronic - GP Ultimate = £395.00p (improve power output by as much as 1bhp) Quote from Cam N.B. on high power kits you should choose the modified Varitronic. Kits such as RB, or tuned TS1, Imola, Rapido, any race tuned scooter, if the scooters output is more then 20bhp you will need this option, we will not garuntee the Varitronic unless the strengthened option is chosen.
Mapped Ignition Kit M1 = £184.96p ( on the tests we have done this saw a 2bhp gain!) Quote from Cam
If memory serves this can only be set up by CE
So add the cost of transport and CE setup fee = ???
Now reading this correctly or someone is miss quoting here power gains by the kit = 3bhp The kit Jimmy is running = 30bhp???
Now reading the advert you stated this is off the shelf - super monza - 30bhp tested by Scootererotica @ 30bhp running all the above kit? Now where have I gone wrong on my maths here? surly this should read 33bhp minimum.... confused .com
The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realise it doesn't say anything it's to late to stop reading it.....
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