i thought youd get it by now
i run a road pipe for the same reason its air cooled ,road ignition with lighting coils and cooling fan,cowlings, std casings,std italian gearbox ratio.s and off the shelf parts throuughout,
the basis of the build was to attempt to produce a race winning group 6 using a road based motor against the odds racing against existing established group 6 that are running 1 off hybrid cranks/hybrid lc cylinders/digital programmable ignitions/bespoke pipes ,welded big ear casings+boost ports etc etc
stingers are pretty basic in standard form but sonic nozzles add more complexity,the stinger was fully welded in and not exposed until i cut it open
the road pipe is proving better than all others tested so would be stupid not to use it and loads of sims done are not producing a better design yet ,perhaps other racers should go down the same route ,take a look at powlottis supermonza for charity tests and youll see the fran race is still the hot ticket along with a few more ROAD pipes
TS1 245 38bhp / 26.14 ft.lbs
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Re your idea. That's fine. And good on you. But this is racing and group 6 racing at that, and you should go flat out to show what you can do rather than be restricted by road components.
Sonic nozzles? Really ? In a road pipe that's off the shelf. I would guess it was just stinger diameter tbh. Or too much advance if it melted ex side. I done this myself!
Re powolottis super monza thing. Well the graph was awful compared to the original with huge torque drop off. Ignore he hp figures as the dynos are so different it's not worth going in to. It's the lines and the area under we are looking at as you know.
Sonic nozzles? Really ? In a road pipe that's off the shelf. I would guess it was just stinger diameter tbh. Or too much advance if it melted ex side. I done this myself!
Re powolottis super monza thing. Well the graph was awful compared to the original with huge torque drop off. Ignore he hp figures as the dynos are so different it's not worth going in to. It's the lines and the area under we are looking at as you know.
Last edited by tony on Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Are you at Lydden mate?
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think this graph helps as it shows this motor against the very popular and well liked mb touring tune motor on a 60 stroke and a gt186 that i think u runMuttley McLadd wrote:Nope.. I wasn't.. My point was that a bike that is used for riding, rather than looking at and using as a boasting point (and used every few weeks to go on a 'ride out') isn't going to be a lot of use if all its power is 6k+.drunkmunkey6969 wrote:
I think what happens here is people confuse BHP and MPH.
Example.. that superdupermonza that someone posted a graph of a little while ago. A standard coop has more power at the sort of revs you'd ride it at whilst negotiating traffic. Yeah, heaps of power higher up, and it's a lovely smooth curve. But watch your rev counter when you're riding in 50/70/80k limits. You're not going to be doing 8k revs. You're doing between 4 and 5.5k, where on one of these 35hp machines, you've got barely any power at all.
Sure, you could downgear it and be doing 7000 revs at urban speed limits. But who wants to sound like a crosser stuck in second?
i dug some graphs out that show all from low rpm, as you can see below its nothing at all what its high power output suggests its gonna be like low down,the red graph this ts1245 is on a huge main jet on this run too hence the big dip at end of run
red ts1 245
blue ts1230 mb touring
green gt186
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Yes, the sonic nozzles are more complex, you'd be looking at something like this, if you were in fact running a sonic nozzle:Darrell Taylor wrote:.....i run a road pipe for the same reason its air cooled ,road ignition with lighting coils and cooling fan,cowlings, std casings,std italian gearbox ratio.s and off the shelf parts throuughout.....
.....stingers are pretty basic in standard form but sonic nozzles add more complexity,the stinger was fully welded in and not exposed until i cut it open .....
tailbu10 by drunkmunkey6969, on Flickr
And as Tony says, i dont think any off the shelf pipes run actual sonic nozzles,so it maybe the standard stinger diameter was just too small for your application.
Obviously at the stinger size you ran, whatever type (standard or sonic) the increased flow restriction caused a higher pipe pressure, and therefore a higher temperature of the gas in the pipe, which is great for performance. But if you create too much flow restriction, the exhaust gases in the cylinder will not fully evacuate by the time the transfers open, they will actually enter the transfer duct and that flow of hot gases will heat up the cylinder and piston to a critical level......hence the 2 x holed pistons you encountered.
Hopefully the new change to the stinger size, to stop your pistons holing in future, wont off-set any other gains made by using that particular pipe.
Hows the rest of the engine holding up with the monster power you produce? Cranks, clutch, gearbox all doing OK?
Fickle things these scooters!! lol
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i have 3 off the shelf pipes in my workshp that have a de laval type nozzle in the stinger and 2 also have them in the header of which there are various forms that create a similar effect,theres a post i made to powolotti in the super monza thread and a cylinder i did around 8yrs ago for an ar50 that i modified in this way to good effect, 8 years ago it was ridiculed at to think of making ports smaller ,i believe 3 yrs ago on here ,but i followed my dyno findings to good effect ,fmf have employed nozzles for around 10 yrs now in a cruder form but with same effect
you say "obviously" ,is that speaking from experience or something youve read ,i find lack of blowdown or increased operating rpm outside of the motors range will outrun the blowdown (why i like to peak motors at 250cc at around 9k max) it causes preheating of transfer charge and blackening of transfer ducts/reed petals , during development of motors its a good sign to watch for as you progress with port development
the sonic nozzle increases outflow and whats previously considered as minimum sizes can be reduced further.
the pistons didnt hole in the middle ,they melted the leading edge of the piston between ring lands,the 2nd ran lower comp ,over retarded timing and over rich jetting but still didnt cure it ,just masked the issue for a few laps more which led my train of thought to cut open a brand new pipe which i wasnt in a hurry to do but found it lurking there at 22mm
motor has ran fine since test day ,except the last meeting snapped a conrod on the 62 116 which demolished the motor so dropped a race but won other 2
you say "obviously" ,is that speaking from experience or something youve read ,i find lack of blowdown or increased operating rpm outside of the motors range will outrun the blowdown (why i like to peak motors at 250cc at around 9k max) it causes preheating of transfer charge and blackening of transfer ducts/reed petals , during development of motors its a good sign to watch for as you progress with port development
the sonic nozzle increases outflow and whats previously considered as minimum sizes can be reduced further.
the pistons didnt hole in the middle ,they melted the leading edge of the piston between ring lands,the 2nd ran lower comp ,over retarded timing and over rich jetting but still didnt cure it ,just masked the issue for a few laps more which led my train of thought to cut open a brand new pipe which i wasnt in a hurry to do but found it lurking there at 22mm
motor has ran fine since test day ,except the last meeting snapped a conrod on the 62 116 which demolished the motor so dropped a race but won other 2
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Which pipes are those?Darrell Taylor wrote:i have 3 off the shelf pipes in my workshp that have a de laval type nozzle in the stinger and 2 also have them in the header
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malossi / polini / brk all 50cc and 70cc pipes conti also have 50 and 80cc pipes the same
the malossi pipe is around 10 yrs old !
50cc is where its at
type in google images and take a look at an old school name autisa but search for autisa g2 / autisa g3 and you,ll see todays technologies present 20+ years ago
the malossi pipe is around 10 yrs old !
50cc is where its at
type in google images and take a look at an old school name autisa but search for autisa g2 / autisa g3 and you,ll see todays technologies present 20+ years ago
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Sorry, i thought we were discussing Lambretta 'off the shelf' pipes.Darrell Taylor wrote:malossi / polini / brk all 50cc and 70cc pipes conti also have 50 and 80cc pipes the same
the malossi pipe is around 10 yrs old !
50cc is where its at
type in google images and take a look at an old school name autisa but search for autisa g2 / autisa g3 and you,ll see todays technologies present 20+ years ago
Obviously (from experience) when i say 'off the shelf'....i mean a suppliers shelf, not the shelf in my garage with non-Lambretta pipes. Therein lies the confusion!
So what was the pipe you were running on the RB when the piston went? Thats the one we were discussing.....and you said it had a sonic stinger?
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no dan ,youll have to read again
i said "stingers are pretty basic in standard form but sonic nozzles add more complexity,the stinger was fully welded in and not exposed until i cut it open"
you also said "And as Tony says, i dont think any off the shelf pipes run actual sonic nozzles"
i replied " i have 3 off the shelf pipes in my workshp that have a de laval type nozzle in the stinger and 2 also have them in the header of which there are various forms that create a similar effect
so plenty off the shelf commercially available pipes have them
cmon dan keep up,put ur glasses on
the rb pipe i was and still am running is a hybrid ,front half lamby rear half bike
ps this post was about a specific ts1245 ,well used to be ,bit off topic now
i said "stingers are pretty basic in standard form but sonic nozzles add more complexity,the stinger was fully welded in and not exposed until i cut it open"
you also said "And as Tony says, i dont think any off the shelf pipes run actual sonic nozzles"
i replied " i have 3 off the shelf pipes in my workshp that have a de laval type nozzle in the stinger and 2 also have them in the header of which there are various forms that create a similar effect
so plenty off the shelf commercially available pipes have them
cmon dan keep up,put ur glasses on
the rb pipe i was and still am running is a hybrid ,front half lamby rear half bike
ps this post was about a specific ts1245 ,well used to be ,bit off topic now
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